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RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:02:29 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

There is no sense me arguing over the Pledge of Allegiance of the United States with you…I see you are radicalized.

I think you have been brainwashed somewhere… but your opinion is as valid as any.

Next I guess you will be complaining about playing the National Anthem at sporting evens…or an honor guard in parades.

Canadian…American…patriotism… are not dirty words...pride in ones country is not brain washing. We need to be teaching our children what our country should be…We have a good set of guides in our Constitution and they need to know them.

Butch



The only way to come back is to insult me, instead of looking logically at what these little kids that can't even read yet are being asked to repeat over and over again... fucking hilarious dude.

Get back to me when you can stop emotionalizing everything



How do you feel about the the Star Spangled Banner? How about the Preamble to the Constitution? These are also things children are excepted to memorize. I recall a million things i had to memorize in school. Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance was the easiest... and oddly enough... has no affected my critical thinking skills, my desire to ask questions, to push for solutions or to be able to determine what parts of government, and society, i view as wrong.

Has it affected yours?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:15:56 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		sravaka is right.

Butch, julia, tazzy---you all have good points. And you're all ready to go further than the cold hard facts to argue your point--yes, into areas of error. Then you're piling on about each other's errors, and with ego unable to back down, you've left the original good points in the dust, accomplishing nothing.

Yes, the pledge is indoctrination of sorts. Yes, it's pretty harmless overall. Yes, the Christian Coalition (and other groups) have long had their eye on education. None of this is particularly new (remember the Scopes Trial? 1925?) in education or politics (Teddy Roosevelt himself opposed the new movement to add "In God We Trust" to the currency--a religious man, he found it sacrilegious). Yes, since the 50s this movement has become more and more organized and concerted.

Time to move forward. Now what?

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:18:10 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

How do you feel about the the Star Spangled Banner? How about the Preamble to the Constitution? These are also things children are excepted to memorize. I recall a million things i had to memorize in school. Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance was the easiest... and oddly enough... has no affected my critical thinking skills, my desire to ask questions, to push for solutions or to be able to determine what parts of government, and society, i view as wrong.

Has it affected yours?


I wish kids recited the preamble to the constitution, or even different parts of the constitution, every year. That would make sense to me, the pledge IS a loyalty oath. I has nothing to do with the constitution. I understand that the government ran school has a right to make students recite loyalty oaths, but I do not support them. I have no emotional connection to the pledge nor to the Star Spangled Banner, which is a song about war... and I am a peacenik so I do not get emotional over that. It leaves me cold.

Now the Preamble, that is a beautiful document. I love it. But the fact of the matter is that kids don't recite that document... instead they pledge to a symbol that is basically a war banner, that is what flags are, a standard for the military. Do not even get me started on the "god" portion of the pledge...

If you look back on why the pledge was started, it was started by a socialist who was also a flag sales person. He wanted to drum up excitement for Flag Day, so he wrote the pledge and went to schools to sell flags with it... true story. What about that should cause me some emotional reaction? Why should you be emotionally impacted by it? Could it be that the tradition of reciting it for years had a brainwashing impact on you and now you cannot conceive of having kids NOT do it? Why the emotionality toward a series of words that have nothing to do with the founding of this nation?

It reminds me of that story "The Box"


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:21:25 AM   
sravaka


Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline 		Forgive me, Julia....  I forgot that it was your thread. 

I for one would love to hear your thoughts on how to fix things-- however radical.  (I suspect that "radical" thoughts are closest to what will work.)

But I'd so much rather hear you say that sort of thing point blank than watch a pissing contest about increasingly irrelevant trivia.

Old links, 2004 scholarship...  again, let it go.  It just ends up working against you, and against points that need to be raised.

Sorry.  I suspect that this will not endear me to you.  But I do mean it with all best wishes and hopes.

--sravaka

_____________________________

Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:21:43 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Why did we invent rhetorical questions?

To open an area of inquiry, an area one then explores?
Or to pile on a series of swipes at the end, in place of reaching supported conclusions?

Will we ever move beyond such devices?



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/14/2010 9:24:13 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:22:02 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Never said you should get emotional over any of it. And thats the point. Encouraging memorization skills is but one way to teach. Encourging it at an early stage is but another.

My point was that by memorizing a short oath, it does not hinder the learning process. It does not increase the chances of loyalty. It does not affect the thought process, or encourage children to goose step. We have bigger fights within the school system than that.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:25:53 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		We could change it:

Nature's first green is gold
Her hardest hue to hold.
Her early leaf's a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.

Imagine the reaction.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:28:13 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Never said you should get emotional over any of it. And thats the point. Encouraging memorization skills is but one way to teach. Encourging it at an early stage is but another.

My point was that by memorizing a short oath, it does not hinder the learning process. It does not increase the chances of loyalty. It does not affect the thought process, or encourage children to goose step. We have bigger fights within the school system than that.


I will leave you all to discuss this very broken system because I have big issues with it from start to finish. I think that public schools and how they are ran are a reflection of the larger culture. The way we line up desks, the way we invest certain types of authority in certain people within the structure. The top/down nature of education, all of these things are a reflection of our economic structure. It is not designed with a view of what is best for the kids that inhabit the structure, it is designed for certain educational outcomes that are expected from the system. It fails because it isn't organic and it is not built on what is best for the happiness and future benefit of those who it supposedly serves. If one does not thrive in this artificial institution they are blamed, or their parents are blamed or the teachers are blamed... it couldn't be that the system is wrong, could it?

Just saying, perhaps it is so flawed that we should reexamine the entire thing... but that would challenge those people who design the system, and they usually have more power than all the subcomponents of it (parents, teachers, students).


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:33:33 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Old links, 2004 scholarship... again, let it go. It just ends up working against you, and against points that need to be raised.


2004 is not all that long ago, when I am doing my literature review that would be considered relevant... anything 10 years old or sooner... and if you cannot see why the Christian Right taking over school systems and curricula is an important piece of the puzzle for why schools are failing, well I guess there is nothing I can say about it that will influence you to see why this is a huge issue in the failing school system...

I would not call it ego, I would call it intellectual honesty... I have some and if someone asks for proof and I provide it, I expect he person to at least review what I posted before dismissing it. He was prepared to reject it before I posted it, and I suppose I shouldn't have went out of my way to do so. I hate my time wasted.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sravaka)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:38:54 AM   
sravaka


Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why did we invent rhetorical questions

<snip> 



Am I alone in cracking up at this?  (in a good way, I swear....)


_____________________________

Miseries hold me fixed, and I would gladly cut these roots to become a floating plant. I would yield myself up utterly, if the inviting stream could be relied upon. --Ono no Komachi

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:41:07 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomMeinCT
In my job, I work with new college grads from prestigious state and private colleges and can absolutely verify that this is true.   We pay these kids heaps of $ straight out of college.  They come with stellar grades and glowing work/study recommendations, and yet they cannot write clearly, think critically and express information in a concise manner (verbally or in writing).

I worked with a young woman whose manager asked me to review basic writing skills:  sentences, paragraphs, basic grammar.  She regularly wrote emails with run-on sentences that were 3 and 4 lines long.  When we got to how to properly use a semicolon, she claimed that she had never heard of one, and when I showed it to her on the keyboard, she exclaimed, "Oh, the one I use for winks!"

*headdesk*


Ha!

You should see some of the legal shit I write up LMAO  I actually had one that had a ton of points and one paragraph was a page and 1/2 long LOL

You are correct, I just watched for shits and giggles a movie on auschwitz that I had not seen in years and they are so packed with contradictions and impossibilities I took it off 1/2 way through and years ago I loved all the old ww2 stuff, but that was before the brain was firing on all 8.

The problem isnt that the material is not available its all about agenda driven indoctrination.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomMeinCT)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:42:42 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline 		Using FR

In my opinion... watching, listening, or reciting something repeatedly will affect you, whether you choose to believe it or not.

Advertising agencies certainly understand this basic principle. Those who deny it are naive, wishful thinkers.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:43:45 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		You suck.

_____________________________



(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:46:43 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

Using FR

In my opinion... watching, listening, or reciting something repeatedly will affect you, whether you choose to believe it or not.

Advertising agencies certainly understand this basic principle. Those who deny it are naive, wishful thinkers.


I absolutely agree with you, and this is part of the structure I have a lot of problems with... what sort of institution designs a loyalty oath for little kids that do not even read yet? I mean, think about it


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:48:44 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		nm


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/14/2010 9:50:10 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to sravaka)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:49:44 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

... it couldn't be that the system is wrong, could it?


Of course the system is wrong. As you said, the education system reflects on the economic structure itself. How could it be anything but wrong?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:51:15 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		<deleted because it was in reply to something julia deleted>

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/14/2010 9:52:06 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:51:57 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My son's high school, after 911 they started playing "The Patriotic Selection" with music such as Lee Greenwood's "Im proud to be an American"...

More put the blinders on with meaningless fluff.



I have a huge problem with kids being made to take the pledge -

Well yeh I suppose so its about the fundamentals of the foundation and seat the government here in the US.  Anyone who is socialist or whatever would be agains that.

and if they decide not to, how much more vulnerable does it make them in the eyes of their peers and teachers?

It dont

I think it's brainwashing. I think the "one nation under god" phrase is offensive.

Yeh me too because its on nation under God and for the "Republic" which it stands. 

Why would you think that one nation under God os offensive since the foundation of law used in the creation of the nation is based in judeao-christian law?

Are you a zionist?

I didn't bring my son to be a sycophantic nationalist.

Now you are bashing nationalists too?  Whats up with that they are the only sovereigns left in this country, would you prefer stalin?

Or is this a test to see who knows what?

http://www.statenationals.net/home.php

I have to believe that I am not alone in feeling this way, and your post demonstrates this. I wonder who decided to make children make this jingoistic declaration everyday at school: where I went to school, I was there to learn, not to declare my undying love for a country I just happened to be born in.

Then why are you here?  Its part of your civil duties to protect your neighbor are you confessing to being civilly irresponsible as well?

I have heard very young children (I'm talking six to ten) here say "I'm proud to be an American!". I wonder who told them to be proud, and of what, and why, and how this pride is going to translate in later life. And these children are being raised by self-professed Christians. This baffles me. After all, pride is supposed to be a deadly sin, isn't it?


self pride....

Whats wrong with standing up for and supporting the people who stand up and support you?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:55:09 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Old links, 2004 scholarship... again, let it go. It just ends up working against you, and against points that need to be raised.


2004 is not all that long ago, when I am doing my literature review that would be considered relevant... anything 10 years old or sooner... and if you cannot see why the Christian Right taking over school systems and curricula is an important piece of the puzzle for why schools are failing, well I guess there is nothing I can say about it that will influence you to see why this is a huge issue in the failing school system...

I would not call it ego, I would call it intellectual honesty... I have some and if someone asks for proof and I provide it, I expect he person to at least review what I posted before dismissing it. He was prepared to reject it before I posted it, and I suppose I shouldn't have went out of my way to do so. I hate my time wasted.



schools should accommodate the kids in their chosen culture and teach them how to survive in a republic.

But they dont they teach them its a democracy.  "shut up and follow the mob"


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 9:55:19 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Neo-Nazi.

_____________________________



(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 80
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