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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Neo-Nazi.

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I absolutely agree with you, and this is part of the structure I have a lot of problems with... what sort of institution designs a loyalty oath for little kids that do not even read yet? I mean, think about it

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ORIGINAL: subfever

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I absolutely agree with you, and this is part of the structure I have a lot of problems with... what sort of institution designs a loyalty oath for little kids that do not even read yet? I mean, think about it

Oh, I have thought about it.

Our "education" is fertile indoctrination right out of the gate. The primary purpose of "education" is to train us to conform, submit, and compete in a world of intentional scarcity.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Neo-Nazi.

I find I just ignore him, he has no credibility here. Even if he post something occasionally that has some relevance I just put it down to "a broken clock is right twice a day"

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
When my son was in grammar school they wanted to teach him how to open a checking account and they wanted to have him invest in stock. He was in 3rd grade. It was part of their "economic literacy" campaign.... they also wanted to teach them about credit, like how credit cards work. I thought this was creepy. I can understand having a class in high school for such things, but 3rd grade? It seemed a bit like teaching him to be indebted and invested into the system. A good little consumer.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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Old links, 2004 scholarship... again, let it go. It just ends up working against you, and against points that need to be raised.

2004 is not all that long ago, when I am doing my literature review that would be considered relevant... anything 10 years old or sooner... and if you cannot see why the Christian Right taking over school systems and curricula is an important piece of the puzzle for why schools are failing, well I guess there is nothing I can say about it that will influence you to see why this is a huge issue in the failing school system...

I would not call it ego, I would call it intellectual honesty... I have some and if someone asks for proof and I provide it, I expect he person to at least review what I posted before dismissing it. He was prepared to reject it before I posted it, and I suppose I shouldn't have went out of my way to do so. I hate my time wasted.

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It seemed a bit like teaching him to be indebted and invested into the system. A good little consumer.

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its not different than the words of a conservative to a liberal right? They dont have any credibility either.

Likewise the other way around.

I think you will find that credibility today is based on "does it agree with me" or my "agenda".

I dont operate that way.

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Our "education" is fertile indoctrination right out of the gate. The primary purpose of "education" is to train us to conform, submit, and compete in a world of intentional scarcity.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

If you look back on why the pledge was started, it was started by a socialist who was also a flag sales person. He wanted to drum up excitement for Flag Day, so he wrote the pledge and went to schools to sell flags with it... true story.

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I hope, as an educator, that is not true. I hope we teach conformity in the sense of social adaptation; how to get along with other people and work together is a very important part of living and working. I hope we do not teach submission, but instead give students enough higher learning skills to recognize bullshit when they see it, and to examine it when they are not sure.
As for intentional scarcity, I would rather be able to teach students to survive and thrive than not, no matter what shape the world is in.
We have very specific goals in our school: to create a suportive community for all students, to teach usable 21st century skills, and to invite open inquiry about all subjects. We do not encourage conformity or submission.
Platitudes like yours are easy to say, hard to back up.

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ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

If you look back on why the pledge was started, it was started by a socialist who was also a flag sales person. He wanted to drum up excitement for Flag Day, so he wrote the pledge and went to schools to sell flags with it... true story.

No, not a "true story".  A twisted perversion of the truth, at best. 

Francis Bellamy (the author of the Pledge of Allegiance) was never a flag sales person.  He was on the staff at The Youth's Companion which was a popular family magazine at that time.  His piece was written (and originally published anonymously) to support a campaign originated by James Upham (with whom Mr. Bellamy was assigned to work) to promote his "National Public School Celebration for Columbus Day".  Mr. Upham, an enthusiastic supporter of patriotic causes, had a desire to supply every public school in the country with a flag and to familiarize every pupil in the country with a flag­raising ceremony.

Mr. Bellamy, with strong support from the Superintendents of Education of the National Education Association, was eventually made chairman of the National Education Association's executive committee for the celebration.  The National Education Associate then adopted a series of resolutions recommending the project to all superintendents, teachers, and newspapers, with a program of exercises for the occasion written by The Youth's Companion.

There are many sources readily available online for the truth.  Here are just a couple:

University of Rochester Library Bulletin, Volume VIII · Winter 1953 · Number 2

The Pledge of Allegiance - A Revised History and Analysis, 2007, by Dr. John W. Baer

But Julia... don't let the facts get in the way of your beliefs.  [;)]

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Francis Julius Bellamy born in Mount Morris, NY on (May 18, 1855 – August 28, 1931) was an American Baptist minister and Christian Socialist[1] who wrote the original Pledge of Allegiance in 1892. It was published in the Youth's Companion, which was a nationally circulated magazine for adolescents, and by 1892 was the largest publication of any type in the United States, with a circulation around 500,000. His cousin Edward Bellamy is the noted author of the socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897). In 1891, Daniel Sharp Ford, the owner of the Youth's Companion, hired Bellamy to work with Ford's nephew James B. Upham in the magazine's premium department. In 1888, the Youth's CompanionAmerican flags to public schools as a premium to solicit subscriptions. had begun a campaign to sell For Upham and Bellamy, the flag promotion was more than merely a business move; under their influence, the Youth's Companion became a fervent supporter of the schoolhouse flag movement, which aimed to place a flag above every school in the nation. By 1892, the magazine had sold American flags to approximately 26,000 schools. By this time the market was slowing for flags, but was not yet saturated. The previous year, Upham had the idea of using the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus reaching the Americas to further bolster the schoolhouse flag movement. The magazine called for a national Columbian Public School Celebration to coincide with the World's Columbian Exposition. A flag salute was to be part of the official program for the Columbus Day celebration to be held in schools all over America. The Pledge was published in the September 8, 1892, issue of the magazine, and immediately put to use in the campaign. Bellamy went to speak to a national meeting of school superintendents to promote the celebration; the convention liked the idea and selected a committee of leading educators to implement the program, including the immediate past president of the National Education Association. Bellamy was selected as the chair. Having received the official blessing of educators, Bellamy's committee now had the task of spreading the word across the nation and of designing an official program for schools to follow on the day of national celebration. He structured the program around a flag raising ceremony and his pledge.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You are the only person on collarme that I have labeled as having no credibility... you are completely lacking in it. There is nothing you post that I would feel the need to investigate further. You are that negated in my world.

There are others here that I do not agree with on substantial issues that I read their links, and their posts. I may not like them or their views, so much so I do not post to them, but I do not post that someone has no credibility unless I think they are a nutcase, and you are a nutcase and a conspiracy theorist, and a genocide denier... you post hurtful things in front of people who have lost people in the Holocaust and you do not care if you are hurtful. I wish they would ban your ass so I would not have to wade through your post and the shit storms they cause. I have never wished anyone was banned until you.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I would think, as a teacher, that you may have asked yourself these questions

"Why is the hierarchy of education set up the way that it is?"
"Why are some skillsets more valued than others?"
"Who decides what knowledge is valuable when setting up the curriculum?"

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Then as a final blow to the 1st amendment ban me from the ability to freely speak because its not what you want to hear?

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


I would think, as a teacher, that you may have asked yourself these questions

"Why is the hierarchy of education set up the way that it is?"
"Why are some skillsets more valued than others?"
"Who decides what knowledge is valuable when setting up the curriculum?"

There are other questions that could be asked, but I think you get the drift, we have a specific target of what we find of value in schools, and that is not always translatable to what our children have a desire to explore or to know. We do not encourage kids with a love of social science to pursue it most of the time. We do not encourage artists to produce art as a vocation most of the time. We do not encourage writers to think about a career in writing most of the time. In short, we as a society are focused on "marketable skills" because those are the skills that corporations need our young people to pursue. We need engineers, math majors, and chemists. This is the sort of skills that kids are encouraged to pursue, even if their hearts tell them they want to sing, they are encouraged to have a "day job". This is because our society does not value them unless they have a marketable talent.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So he wasn't a socialist?

He did not profit from flag sales?

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We do not encourage kids with a love of social science to pursue it most of the time. We do not encourage artists to produce art as a vocation most of the time. We do not encourage writers to think about a career in writing most of the time. In short, we as a society are focused on "marketable skills" because those are the skills that corporations need our young people to pursue. We need engineers, math majors, and chemists. This is the sort of skills that kids are encouraged to pursue, even if their hearts tell them they want to sing, they are encouraged to have a "day job". This is because our society does not value them unless they have a marketable talent.

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ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So he wasn't a socialist?

He did not profit from flag sales?

Did my post challenge your claim that he was socialist?

So... you're wanting to emphasize that Francis Bellamy was a socialist, yet demonize his actions with capitalist motives.

Interesting.