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I'm a musician and a writer. It's not an easy way to go. The competition is intensely fierce, and even many talented people will not be about to work in these fields. Advising students on the side of caution, as outlined above, is prudent. Not to do so would be reckless and irresponsible. And mediocre to mildly talented students with an interest should be discouraged in terms of a career path in these directions. They will not make it. It should remain a hobby. And that's fine---I love to take pictures. I don't try to sell them, or to work for someone else taking pictures.

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You're arguing disparate points. That our society economically values some skills and professions higher than others is obvious. If you want to change that, fine. I'd be interested in seeing just how you plan to do that. But in the meantime, teaching students about the world they actually live in is the responsible approach. To examine it, question it, explore it--OK, fine. That's important too.

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In the meantime, though, practical skills are essential. I learned to be a successful businessman--the hard way. Dreams need to be funded. Learning how to do that within the content of the society that is should remain an essential part of education.

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I hope, as an educator, that is not true. I hope we teach conformity in the sense of social adaptation; how to get along with other people and work together is a very important part of living and working. I hope we do not teach submission, but instead give students enough higher learning skills to recognize bullshit when they see it, and the tools to examine it when they are not sure.
As for intentional scarcity, I would rather be able to teach students to survive and thrive than not, no matter what shape the world is in.
We have very specific goals in our school: to create a suportive community for all students, to teach usable 21st century skills, and to invite open inquiry about all subjects. We do not encourage conformity or submission.
Platitudes like yours are easy to say, hard to back up.

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I used to see a lot more of that kind of do-a-certain-career-as-necessity thing than I do now. I think we try hard to help students pursue the path they love the most, not the most useful tool in society. The arts are extremely important in my school, and I am proud of that, even though I am a nose-to-grindstone science teacher!
Yes we do focus on marketable skills, education is about helping people to become adults, and like it or not adults are expected to contribute in some way. That is an important social skill. That does not mean we shut the door on creativity.

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That being said, I love my job, and even as I struggle to get my students to ask a question, to go outside the box, to think instead of memorize, I believe in what I am doing. Is the system flawed? Oh hell yes. Most large systems are. Change comes slowly, but it is coming. Educational reform has already made many changes, most for the good. Educators have become more accountable, and will continue to be under the microscope. The bar has definitely been raised.

Howevery, lucky for anyone who does not wish to participate in the public school sytem, there are options everywhere. I for one would rather see people participate and become change agents than complain.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

No.. I am stating what was done, and I used your source to show it...

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...As discussed in Chapter Three, Francis Bellamy's role in his cousin Edward's Nationalist movement took the form of advancing the cause of the Society of Christian Socialists. By the close of 1890, the conservative businessmen on the Committee on Christian Work of the Baptist Social Union were increasingly bothered by his socialist activities and sermons and so reduced their appropriations to the Bethany Church.

In a January l, 1891 letter to the Committee, Francis explained that he sympathized with the workingman. He wrote that Daniel Ford had urged him to show in his preaching how the Bible was full of sympathy with the poor and that the Savior was the poor man's friend. He stated he had never preached against the rich, even avoiding reading the many biblical statements against them, but admitted that he had condemned covetousness as the most prevalent sin of his day and pointed out that the New Testament condemned this sin at greater length than any other. He explained that he had become a Christian Socialist on the basis of the Scriptures alone. He threatened to resign if funding was not renewed. In April 1891 he did resign and announced his intentions to go to work for his friend and mentor, Daniel Ford.

At this time Daniel Ford was Francis's closest friend and career advisor. When Francis had been a minister, they had discussed a new proposed Introductory Department at The Youth's Companion for devising methods for arousing the interest of the public in the magazine. Ford may have hired Francis also to "shake up" The Companion as his special assistant. He told Bellamy to "consult nobody on the editorial floor; be intimate with nobody; let a certain degree of mystery attach to you among the editors."

Ford assigned Bellamy to work with James Upham. Upham needed someone to take charge of his National Public School Celebration for Columbus Day. Upham had gone to school in an era when children were trained in patriotism. Children would recite sections of the Declaration of Independence or U.S. Constitution or a part of a speech by Daniel Webster. He hoped that the substitute in the public schools would be the flag. Children would watch the flag being raised at their schools and would develop a little more love for their country.

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Now, while I don't feel that this particular issue is of great importance to the topic to your thread, I do take exception to your distortion of history for the purpose of engendering support for your beliefs. I'm sure there is enough factual evidence out there for you to make your case... there's no need to make shit up and pass it off as "true story".

Edited to include link.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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I'm a musician and a writer. It's not an easy way to go. The competition is intensely fierce, and even many talented people will not be about to work in these fields. Advising students on the side of caution, as outlined above, is prudent. Not to do so would be reckless and irresponsible. And mediocre to mildly talented students with an interest should be discouraged in terms of a career path in these directions. They will not make it. It should remain a hobby. And that's fine---I love to take pictures. I don't try to sell them, or to work for someone else taking pictures.

Why, though, because it is not a marketable talent... in other words we do not develop people to do things that would make them happy, even if they do not directly take the photos, perhaps they could be involved in another aspect of this art... that is my whole point, we encourage kids to become a cog in a wheel because it is "safe" in our "system" because the point of education is not to fulfill dreams, it is to supply labor.

No. We encourage kids to do a lot of things---including put food on the table once they graduate. You can feel all good about yourself, but what happens to these kids once they walk out the door into the real world? Hungry doesn't feel good.

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You're arguing disparate points. That our society economically values some skills and professions higher than others is obvious. If you want to change that, fine. I'd be interested in seeing just how you plan to do that. But in the meantime, teaching students about the world they actually live in is the responsible approach. To examine it, question it, explore it--OK, fine. That's important too.

I said at the beginning that my ideas were radical, I was encouraged to post them, I did, and now that I have you are going to shoot them down and not discuss them theoretically.
Bullshit. I pointed out that you are mixing issues. It's a respectful discussion, and I made a valid point. You're the one stamping your feet in response. Instead, try answering them the way normal academic discussions do---with points and supporting arguments.

.. pretty much why I resisted posting them at first...
So you wouldn't have to defend them? Come on. That's what a discussion entails.

I encourage young people to follow their dreams, because we can play by the rules of the system our entire lives and still get cheated out of what we built... as many people are learning. Why not explore our dreams, follow our bliss. Most people are attracted to professions they are good at if they were given the opportunity to discover what it is that they are good at. It could be writing, it could be math, or science, or art... but to pursue a career because that is where the money is today is no assurance that there will be money there tomorrow. The system is built to saturate needed skills... need nurses, well import them... need computer analysists?  Well educate more than you need and then off shore the rest of that work... it is not a good strategy to encourage people to chase where the good jobs are this year, because that will change the next.

This is straw man at best. We all encourage young people to follow their dreams. And we don't intentionally steer them to the big money. But what you ignore is that we also have to show them how to realize those dreams in the real world.

You're also overlooking that skills are transferable, one profession to another.

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In the meantime, though, practical skills are essential. I learned to be a successful businessman--the hard way. Dreams need to be funded. Learning how to do that within the content of the society that is should remain an essential part of education.

Successful business models change so quickly, what worked in one decade will not work in another... this is what I am talking about, trying to play the game of this structure that we exist in is a gamble even if you take the best of advice... which shows that the system does not serve any of us. It is filled with insecurity... no amount of marketable skillsets is going to change that.

No, I strongly disagree. Of course things change. But we can learn effective strategies for that changing world

It's what people do everyday in the real world.

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People disagree. And for the most part, they're letting your ubar-teacher swipes pass, the "as a teacher I'd think" crap that makes you the voice of sane education, when to be blunt, I commonly read your takes and think you're exactly in that group of self-absorbed teachers that are the heart of the problem.

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Have a cup of coffee. Take a few deep breaths. Go for a walk.

Then look afresh

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Well if you insist on pigeon holing yourself like that what can I say.  You see there are whether you realize it or not several issues that we completely agree on and if I am not credible then how can you claim credibility.

Just because you disagree with my standing on a couple issues does preclude everything I talk about is not credible unless you wish to include your own positions that we both agree on.  In fact I can back virtually everything I say out here in the terms expressed.  

The opposite side of that domain is those who are so well programmed and indoctrinated they have become conspiracy deniars and it is a religion to many out here.

Should I just agree to "go along"?  With that policy why even have any discussions at all?  Why not everyone just go along with and agree with whatever?

The way I see it you are a victim of precisely what you wish to save your children from.  You and many others out here have been programmed.  You heard the terms genocide so often and they showed you pictures many of which in many cases were russian atrocities but you never researched that to know the difference as to who did what and you carry it forward as if it were gospel.  Is that not indoctrination to a false precept?

I can easily argue by comparative history that no genocide took place either.  Why you would claim I am not credible when I am the only one who puts up data and everyone else just shouts emotional insults does not make sense for someone claiming to be a credible critical thinker.

You dont like it when people try to tell you what your expereince and abilities in life are why would you not give others the same space you demand for yourself?

Then as a final blow to the 1st amendment ban me from the ability to freely speak because its not what you want to hear?

There seem to be a lot of diametrically opposed directions you are travelling at the same time.

As for the shit storms why do you blame me because so many people go into emotional rage?  Do you feel I am responsible for their inability to control themselves?

Wouldnt it be better for them to control themsleves?  People get shot because of minor traffic infractions when they cant control themselves.  Is that a better world?

Whatever trips your trigger I spose.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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Then as a final blow to the 1st amendment ban me from the ability to freely speak because its not what you want to hear?

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what the first amendment states. The first amendment does not stop me from pushing you out of my business because you are saying offensive stuff.

If this were your business you are correct and I never said anything to the contrary.  The real question is why the need t opaint me into a position I never took.

It does not force me to engage in a conversation with you.

Thats absolutely correct!  You have the right to turn the knob to the off position.

It does not require CM to allow you a platform from which to Holocaust deny from.

What the hell?

How did CM get dragged into this?  You are the one claiming I should be banned not CM.

Are you and CM one in the same?

You have NO RIGHT to go on any private message board and spew your lies, collarme only allows you to, they could stop you at any time they chose to.

Thats right Julia that part you have correct! CM is the property of whomever, I assume not you and when on someone elses property and you agree to abide by their rules then you can contract freedom of speech away, BUT its not CM we are talking about.

We are talking about YOUR statement that I should be banned and now youaccusation that I lied when indeed I have not and you shown no evidecne to the contrary.

If they do they are not denying you a first amendment right to free speech anymore than I am denying a political campaign free speech when they call me at dinner time and I hang up on them.

This is why you continue to lack credibility... it is idiotic statements like these.

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No. We encourage kids to do a lot of things---including put food on the table once they graduate. You can feel all good about yourself, but what happens to these kids once they walk out the door into the real world? Hungry doesn't feel good.

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I pointed out that you are mixing issues. It's a respectful discussion, and I made a valid point. You're the one stamping your feet in response. Instead, try answering them the way normal academic discussions do---with points and supporting arguments.

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So you wouldn't have to defend them? Come on. That's what a discussion entails.

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Neither does preparing for 4 years for a job that doesn't exist by the time you get that BA degree

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

... you have posted nothing to deflect the fact that this man worked for a magazine that pushed for a flag to be positioned in every classroom and that sold a helluva lot of flags

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

If you look back on why the pledge was started, it was started by a socialist who was also a flag sales person. He wanted to drum up excitement for Flag Day, so he wrote the pledge and went to schools to sell flags with it... true story.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am done on this topic

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Successful business models change so quickly, what worked in one decade will not work in another... this is what I am talking about, trying to play the game of this structure that we exist in is a gamble even if you take the best of advice... which shows that the system does not serve any of us.

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Again, it's all personal to you. Everyone else is discussing points.

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And yes, you've taken multiple condescending swipes. Go have a look.

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ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

... you have posted nothing to deflect the fact that this man worked for a magazine that pushed for a flag to be positioned in every classroom and that sold a helluva lot of flags

It wasn't my spin.  Above, what you write is a vastly different version of the "true story" that you originally posted.  In case you don't recall...

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

If you look back on why the pledge was started, it was started by a socialist who was also a flag sales person. He wanted to drum up excitement for Flag Day, so he wrote the pledge and went to schools to sell flags with it... true story.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am done on this topic

lol... I'd say you are.

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ORIGINAL: subfever

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Successful business models change so quickly, what worked in one decade will not work in another... this is what I am talking about, trying to play the game of this structure that we exist in is a gamble even if you take the best of advice... which shows that the system does not serve any of us.

Correct, it doesn't serve any of us peons. And I doubt anyone on the top of the food chain is lurking here on these boards.

The educational system reflects the economy. As time goes on, technology and outsourcing will continue to shrink the job pool. Those jobs aren't coming back. The business cycle is in contraction... quite possibly a major contraction.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Still waiting for that thread...