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RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:11:12 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Still waiting for that thread...


I wouldn't want to add to your persecution complex. 



You know what, you truly are a silly silly woman...

edited to add... I just don't want you distracting me anymore and I wanted to confine your silliness


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/14/2010 12:12:26 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to TreasureKY)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:21:02 PM   
tnai


Posts: 29
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline 		I read through these and this is what really struck me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There was a period in which the Christian Coalition stacked school boards all over the country with folks who either belonged to the Christian Coalition or affiliated Christian organizations... I do not think that these folks represent mainstream America. I also do not think that most young parents even know who is running for their local school boards, much less who is behind them or what their ideology is. I remember being a young mother. I was busy worrying about who my son's teacher was going to be, not who was running the school. I looked at test scores, etc, but I did not think to look into the direction the school was going...

Not to be a jerk but if a group doesn't care enough to run against someone they disagree with how much say do we really want them having?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:27:04 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

The system isn't "evil". I do not think for a minute that I can change it by posting on a message board... all I would probably do is end up looking like someone who was pushing for some Utopian ideal, and I do not believe in those either... but there has to be some middle ground between standardized testing and really learning. There has to be some room for the arts somewhere. Perhaps there has to be some room to fund people to pursue their dreams...


It depends on how you define "evil" I suppose.

The system serves those at the top of the food chain, not humanity.

There certainly should be room for the arts, and for people to pursue their dreams. But the system discourages this, because it doesn't provide economic value.


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:27:06 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tnai

There was a period in which the Christian Coalition stacked school boards all over the country with folks who either belonged to the Christian Coalition or affiliated Christian organizations... I do not think that these folks represent mainstream America. I also do not think that most young parents even know who is running for their local school boards, much less who is behind them or what their ideology is. I remember being a young mother. I was busy worrying about who my son's teacher was going to be, not who was running the school. I looked at test scores, etc, but I did not think to look into the direction the school was going...

Supposedly they tried to get Jack Chick onto a school board in New York state, but he was too busy drawing comics.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to tnai)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:31:12 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

The system isn't "evil". I do not think for a minute that I can change it by posting on a message board... all I would probably do is end up looking like someone who was pushing for some Utopian ideal, and I do not believe in those either... but there has to be some middle ground between standardized testing and really learning. There has to be some room for the arts somewhere. Perhaps there has to be some room to fund people to pursue their dreams...


It depends on how you define "evil" I suppose.

The system serves those at the top of the food chain, not humanity.

There certainly should be room for the arts, and for people to pursue their dreams. But the system discourages this, because it doesn't provide economic value.



Tell that to Stephen King and Dan Brown. They've brought quite a bit of money into your country over their careers, and are probably providing a steadier trickle of money than any of your manufacturing industry at the moment. It's not like either of them's paying somebody who works in a sweatshop in Asia to write their books for them, is it?
Given all of the fuss about the American film industry and pop music, I always find it very strange when people argue that the arts isn't a serious source of revenue. I'd suspect that they made a lot more last year than whatever's left of the big three.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:31:26 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tnai

I read through these and this is what really struck me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There was a period in which the Christian Coalition stacked school boards all over the country with folks who either belonged to the Christian Coalition or affiliated Christian organizations... I do not think that these folks represent mainstream America. I also do not think that most young parents even know who is running for their local school boards, much less who is behind them or what their ideology is. I remember being a young mother. I was busy worrying about who my son's teacher was going to be, not who was running the school. I looked at test scores, etc, but I did not think to look into the direction the school was going...


Not to be a jerk but if a group doesn't care enough to run against someone they disagree with how much say do we really want them having?


You really butchered up your response, mixing Julia's words with your own. Now it looks as though Moon is responding to you, when he's actually responding to Julia.



< Message edited by subfever -- 3/14/2010 12:32:43 PM >

(in reply to tnai)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:31:45 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Neither does preparing for 4 years for a job that doesn't exist by the time you get that BA degree


OK. Let's see examples of this.

But the best programs don't do this exclusively---they focus on skills, and those skills are transferable.

Every day I teach things that didn't exist when I was in school.





I would agree with that. I am being currently taught statistical analysis and linguistic ethnographic methodologies just this semester. Last year I was taught program evaluation and ethnographic methods. The ethnographic methods course is extremely popular and only one or two non-anthro majors are allowed in each year... I am really lucky to have gotten that education because it could lead to some kick ass career options (which is why people want it so badly). In fact anthropology is a field with options... lots of marketable options... but that is not why I went into it. When I first dreamed of doing this, there were no options but teaching in my vocation... that has drastically changed. I am learning grant writing skills next fall, for example.

My point is that there are marketable skills to be learned by following your bliss. I am quoting Jospeh Campbell here

quote:

If you follow your bliss, you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. When you can see that, you begin to meet people who are in your field of bliss, and they open doors to you.  I say, follow your bliss and don't be afraid, and doors will open where you didn't know they were going to be.

That is what he always told his students... sound advice.



_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:35:33 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

The system isn't "evil". I do not think for a minute that I can change it by posting on a message board... all I would probably do is end up looking like someone who was pushing for some Utopian ideal, and I do not believe in those either... but there has to be some middle ground between standardized testing and really learning. There has to be some room for the arts somewhere. Perhaps there has to be some room to fund people to pursue their dreams...


It depends on how you define "evil" I suppose.

The system serves those at the top of the food chain, not humanity.

There certainly should be room for the arts, and for people to pursue their dreams. But the system discourages this, because it doesn't provide economic value.



Tell that to Stephen King and Dan Brown. They've brought quite a bit of money into your country over their careers, and are probably providing a steadier trickle of money than any of your manufacturing industry at the moment. It's not like either of them's paying somebody who works in a sweatshop in Asia to write their books for them, is it?
Given all of the fuss about the American film industry and pop music, I always find it very strange when people argue that the arts isn't a serious source of revenue. I'd suspect that they made a lot more last year than whatever's left of the big three.


I wondered how long it would be before someone would throw Hollywood or best sellers in my face.

In your opinion, how many starving artists are there for every commercially successful one?



< Message edited by subfever -- 3/14/2010 12:36:36 PM >

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:36:16 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		That said, it didn't really work for John Kennedy Toole, did it?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:36:35 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: tnai

There was a period in which the Christian Coalition stacked school boards all over the country with folks who either belonged to the Christian Coalition or affiliated Christian organizations... I do not think that these folks represent mainstream America. I also do not think that most young parents even know who is running for their local school boards, much less who is behind them or what their ideology is. I remember being a young mother. I was busy worrying about who my son's teacher was going to be, not who was running the school. I looked at test scores, etc, but I did not think to look into the direction the school was going...

Supposedly they tried to get Jack Chick onto a school board in New York state, but he was too busy drawing comics.

Somehow that tickles my funny bone


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:37:49 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

That said, it didn't really work for John Kennedy Toole, did it?


That book was one of the bestest ever... It is a great loss to literature that he offed himself.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/14/2010 12:38:06 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:38:55 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline 		~fast reply~

I won't argue the point that things are broken in the public school system.  Many are.

Many things do work right though, and one of those things is the majority of folks that work at schools.  This is everyone from the lunchladies to the custodians to the teachers to the principals.

After working for a large public school system for nearly 17 years, I can honestly say I have seen folks do acts of kindness and go above and beyond the call of duty.

I have held a child while they sobbed because of death or abuse or such more times than I care to remember.  There are many of the students in the area I work in who would not have a kind word or a smile or a hug or a nutritious meal if not for the public schools.

Ya'll can go on with the debate of whats wrong.  All I can say is that no one is forced to say the pledge, in fact many classes do not even pause when it is done on the announcements theses days.  That makes me sad, as I think having a loyalty and pride towards ones country is a good thing, but then I been called nuts before.

The fixing of the educational system will not happen until we fix the family.  I would say that means were kinda sorta fucked in many ways.  A child who has no foundation of learning before entering the school system starts out behind.  Add to that non-caring parents, moms who are too stressed to care what the 5 kids do after school, kids who need glasses and have no money to get them, kids who have no warm clothes, kids who enter kindergarten not knowing colors and numbers up to 10....

I could go on, but it will not change anyones mind.  Just remember, as you sit and fight about whats wrong, there are many of us who fight the fight daily to help these students survive and have the basic necessities.  Help fix that and the rest will just happen.

_____________________________

yep

(in reply to tnai)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:40:25 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

The system isn't "evil". I do not think for a minute that I can change it by posting on a message board... all I would probably do is end up looking like someone who was pushing for some Utopian ideal, and I do not believe in those either... but there has to be some middle ground between standardized testing and really learning. There has to be some room for the arts somewhere. Perhaps there has to be some room to fund people to pursue their dreams...


It depends on how you define "evil" I suppose.

The system serves those at the top of the food chain, not humanity.

There certainly should be room for the arts, and for people to pursue their dreams. But the system discourages this, because it doesn't provide economic value.



Tell that to Stephen King and Dan Brown. They've brought quite a bit of money into your country over their careers, and are probably providing a steadier trickle of money than any of your manufacturing industry at the moment. It's not like either of them's paying somebody who works in a sweatshop in Asia to write their books for them, is it?
Given all of the fuss about the American film industry and pop music, I always find it very strange when people argue that the arts isn't a serious source of revenue. I'd suspect that they made a lot more last year than whatever's left of the big three.


I wondered how long it would be before someone would throw Hollywood or best sellers in my face.

In your opinion, how many starving artists are there for every commercially successful one?



Shitloads. The stupid money that the Kings and Rowlings get as advances is subsidised by paying all of the c list peanuts as well as what they actually earn through their sales. There is, however, a small plutocracy who make a hell of a lot of money. I'm certainly not getting into the whole state of the visual arts, where there are people who make Stephen King look like Edgar Allen Poe by comparison.
Most unsuccessful artists try to hold down a day job, rather than starving, you'll find.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:42:40 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

That said, it didn't really work for John Kennedy Toole, did it?


That book was one of the bestest ever... It is a great loss to literature that he offed himself.

I was horrified to read around that whole mess. You have to admire his mother for actually getting the poor guy's novel into print.
Always makes me think of that Dunsany story about the pursuit of Fame, to be honest.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:43:11 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Add to that non-caring parents, moms who are too stressed to care what the 5 kids do after school, kids who need glasses and have no money to get them, kids who have no warm clothes, kids who enter kindergarten not knowing colors and numbers up to 10....


Perhaps those parents care, but they are working two jobs just to pay the mortgage and they cannot buy their kids glasses because they have no money... stressed out over economics to the point it hinders their parenting.... a problem with the entire system, not the parents who are operating within it...


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:53:16 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Most unsuccessful artists try to hold down a day job, rather than starving, you'll find.


Bingo.

And by so doing, are they pursuing their dreams by washing dishes or driving a taxi?

Are they expending most of their energies to pursue their creative endeavors, or to extract enough money out of the monetary system to survive?


(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 12:55:35 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

Most unsuccessful artists try to hold down a day job, rather than starving, you'll find.


Bingo.

And by so doing, are they pursuing their dreams by washing dishes or driving a taxi?

Are they expending most of their energies to pursue their creative endeavors, or to extract enough money out of the monetary system to survive?



So you'd be in favour of some sort of federal arts funding programme to stop them having to do that, then?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 1:05:02 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

So you'd be in favour of some sort of federal arts funding programme to stop them having to do that, then?


We used to have a lot more funding for the arts during the Cold War to prove that we were superior to the Soviets..... that was first called into question under Reagan as being superfluous nonsense and in order to turn the public against supporting the arts the media started to cover artists that had edgy art... I remember one artist that photographed S&M  scenes being set up as a straw man to get the public to defund the arts...

I think that we could find some way to fund art in a way that supported art that isn't "marketable"


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 1:05:35 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I could go on, but it will not change anyones mind. Just remember, as you sit and fight about whats wrong, there are many of us who fight the fight daily to help these students survive and have the basic necessities.


There are times when treating symptoms is necessary. This is one of them. So is treating a man for a heart attack. Treat the symptom now, and worry about the cause later!

quote:

Help fix that and the rest will just happen.


Sorry. Can't agree with you here. We can treat symptoms all our lives, but it still won't solve the underlying problems.

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 1:06:09 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Old links, 2004 scholarship... again, let it go. It just ends up working against you, and against points that need to be raised.


2004 is not all that long ago, when I am doing my literature review that would be considered relevant... anything 10 years old or sooner... and if you cannot see why the Christian Right taking over school systems and curricula is an important piece of the puzzle for why schools are failing, well I guess there is nothing I can say about it that will influence you to see why this is a huge issue in the failing school system...

I would not call it ego, I would call it intellectual honesty... I have some and if someone asks for proof and I provide it, I expect he person to at least review what I posted before dismissing it. He was prepared to reject it before I posted it, and I suppose I shouldn't have went out of my way to do so. I hate my time wasted.


You have still failed to provide any viable information...or proof. I detailed the faults with your links...I'm open to you providing me real substantial information however...It is not for me to look up it is for you to prove.

And I was wondering why you thought I insulted you saying you were radical when in a few posts later you said you were... Hard to keep track of your words isn't it.

You always act like people are attacking you when they are not they just disagree...no need to call peoples posts bullshit... Musicmystery is right you need a coffee break.

You are bright, articulate, and passionate but you need to learn you may not always be right.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 140
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