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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 3:11:20 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		LP said something that kept tickling my brain and i finally figured out why -- she said basically, she wanted the same mercy shown him as he showed the unborn child -- or something to that effect.

You know even if he wanted to kill the step-mom, and did so, how can we be sure he understood completely the ramification of killing an unborn child? I mean even in law its fairly new law in some states where if an unborn child dies in the line of a crime its considered murder or manslaughter. How can we be sure a 12 year old even understands the concept of FETUS in terms of life? I mean for many kids until the baby is born they don't really register the concept.

So what if he never thought abuot the unborn child or the ramifications of killing its mother? This is a 12 year old kid. If he as a child had no real concept of the unborn child -- and your majority concept of "punishing him" and mercy being shown him is based upon YOUR understanding of an unborn child as an adult and perhaps a mother, how can you compare the mercy he showed the unborn child and mercy towards him for his actions.

Many people still don't deem the fetus a child, while the laws in some states now do in terms of a homicide or manslaughter, its still very new to the table of law. I am not saying this as an excuse, but with regard to mercy and expecting a 12 year old to fully understand the concept of pregnancy and life?

angel

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 3:35:37 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Many people still don't deem the fetus a child, while the laws in some states now do in terms of a homicide or manslaughter, its still very new to the table of law. I am not saying this as an excuse, but with regard to mercy and expecting a 12 year old to fully understand the concept of pregnancy and life?


This is bound to open up another can of worms, but the entire reason that some states have pushed to try people who kill pregnant women for double homicide is to give the fetus legal standing as sentient human being under the law, therefore setting  up the argument legally that abortion is murder.


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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 3:59:41 PM   
heartcream


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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		Rrrr are there loads of pro-lifer's here?

A child who incarnates against the will of the parents could very well be the sort of spirit that would run roughshod over those same parents. Yes, the parents need to take responsibility and try not to get pregnant but sometimes things happen that shouldnt and then there she is with child.

I really hope that ridiculous law does not get passed.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 4:09:58 PM   
JonnieBoy


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quote:

If he committed the crime, what do you think should happen to him?


He should be tested (tried) in a court under the laws pertinent to the place/county/country of the crime to establish he committed the crime and sentenced according to the same laws.

If that means life then so be it. (I'm not going into moral debates on the death penalty here, but) If the law calls for it, then he dies.

Pirate

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 4:16:29 PM   
JonnieBoy


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From: Cymru
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

the argument legally that abortion is murder.



In most cases, that's what it is.

Pirate

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 4:25:22 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		My comments about the fetus were not in any way regarding abortion, i really hope people are not planning on turning this into an abortion debate. No matter why the laws exist with regard to homicide they exist in many states where if a crime is committed against the mother which results in her death and subsequently the death of her fetus, it is in some state's considered a double homicide or double charge of manslaughter. So the abortion debate holds no place here and is for another thread. My comments were strictly about the criminal statute that some state's hold.

But my question was simply can we really expect a 12 year old to understand the concept of the death of a fetus even if they committ murder against the mother?

angel

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 4:31:28 PM   
JonnieBoy


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Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
Status: offline 		If by "people" you're including me ... no.

If the unborn victim is seen as such under the jurisdiction relevant, then I guess it could become a big issue ... because then it's a multiple murder.

In answer to your question about a 12 year olds understanding of the concept of the death of an unborn. Yes ... we can.

Pirate

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 4:41:30 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		The best you might get in charging a mother for the death of an unborn brought about by abortion would be conspiracy, incitement or accessory to manslaughter with diminished responsibility. You'd have to charge the doctor with murder.

And anyone who thinks abortion is something entered into lightly, or which is casually undertaken or then easily dismissed after the event, wants a clip round the ear (to put it politely)

E

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 4:55:09 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
My comments about the fetus were not in any way regarding abortion, i really hope people are not planning on turning this into an abortion debate. No matter why the laws exist with regard to homicide they exist in many states where if a crime is committed against the mother which results in her death and subsequently the death of her fetus, it is in some state's considered a double homicide or double charge of manslaughter. So the abortion debate holds no place here and is for another thread.

It's an interesting question because technically it is related as it becomes a case of: it's only double murder when the parent wants the child, which seems absurd.

My simple view on the issue to settle the double murder debate i.e. in line with that of abortion would be to only consider it double murder if the pregnancy has progressed beyond the legal limit for abortion. Even then that is tenuous to call it double murder because miscarriages can happen at any stage and nobody knows for sure if that baby would have been born successfully in any event.


< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 3/17/2010 4:58:01 PM >

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 4:58:05 PM   
Phoenixpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

In Germany there would be no trial a all for this boy. Neither juvenile nor adult court.
Children are deemed "schuldunfähig", not able to be prosecuted under the age of 14. There is some talk about lowering this to 12, though.
The boy would receive psychological attention, and if he is guilty, he would be confined in an closed institution where he would receive therapy. He would stay there until he were deemed no longer a danger to others and himself.
Society at large would be protected, while he might get help, maybe even have a chance at "getting fixed".

Between 14 and 18 teenagers are automatically tried as juveniles, and between 18 and 21 there will be psychological examinations to determinate if somebody should be tried as a juvenile or an adult.

Over all I like this system. It provides the necessary safety for society, while still taking into account the differences between children, teens, and adults.


I thought I could provide some different perspective by highlighting how those cases are handled in an other place.


Not necessarily in a closed institution in Germany, though...I worked with kids in normal childrens' homes (which weren't closed in any form) who had some who had gone off the rails big time...but if closed or not would depend on how much threat they would display for society in offering them a normal place instead of a closed institution. However, yes, we emphasise more on the actual state of development and also take into account how well or not well he or she was raised at home at that age...so if a kid eg has a very bad upbringing, then we don't lock them away at that age, we try to help them to continue to grow with a little bit of a better understanding of how to behave because after all, it's not just the kids fault to behave bad when that kid hasn't had much of a chance to learn to behave in a better way if their parents didn't do a good job in the first place.#

Though nevertheless, (not sure if it is true or not as I never looked into it with proper statistics) the saying was going around in those days 10 years ago that about 80% of those kids we looked after one day or another, in their future life, were facing jail at least once...but seeing how it is over here I certainly prefer the system back in Germany.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 5:53:19 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

LP said something that kept tickling my brain and i finally figured out why -- she said basically, she wanted the same mercy shown him as he showed the unborn child -- or something to that effect.

You know even if he wanted to kill the step-mom, and did so, how can we be sure he understood completely the ramification of killing an unborn child? I mean even in law its fairly new law in some states where if an unborn child dies in the line of a crime its considered murder or manslaughter. How can we be sure a 12 year old even understands the concept of FETUS in terms of life? I mean for many kids until the baby is born they don't really register the concept.

So what if he never thought abuot the unborn child or the ramifications of killing its mother? This is a 12 year old kid. If he as a child had no real concept of the unborn child -- and your majority concept of "punishing him" and mercy being shown him is based upon YOUR understanding of an unborn child as an adult and perhaps a mother, how can you compare the mercy he showed the unborn child and mercy towards him for his actions.

Many people still don't deem the fetus a child, while the laws in some states now do in terms of a homicide or manslaughter, its still very new to the table of law. I am not saying this as an excuse, but with regard to mercy and expecting a 12 year old to fully understand the concept of pregnancy and life?

angel

Like everyone, I'm only pulling My thoughts based on what I'm reading in the news reports.  (We agree on that, btw.  There are a lot of things not revealed using this method.  Not just in regards to high profile cases, but on many other subjects as well.)

I don't know the kid, but mentioned in the article were two different versions of how he may or may not have felt about the unborn child.  If either of those versions are true, I tend to believe that he understood the concept.  Of course, part of that belief is based on how siblings were taught in My family (Me, My oldest daughter with My first grandchild when expecting the second, etc).  I tend to think that's more common than unique.  While he may not have been emotionally bonded to the unborn child, I'm sure it was obvious that there was a baby coming. 

We do agree on two other things.  The first is, no, I sure wouldn't want to be the one sitting on the bench for this one, either.  This is going to be a shitstorm (excuse My language, but it's a fitting term) for whoever has this case.  It wouldn't surprise Me if this became a circus.

The second is, no, this doesn't provide additional material (I hope) for the abortion debate.  At eight and a half months pregnant, that is a viable fetus, and the charge of two counts, rather than one, is completely appropriate.


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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 6:02:52 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


Posts: 8159
Joined: 10/5/2009
From: The Great Frozen North
Status: offline 		This is really odd, while searching for new info on this story I came across this article from February 2009 which states that he has been charged as an adult. So I wonder why tazzy's article states that the decision has yet to be made.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/21/jordan-brown-killed-fathe_n_168862.html

zeph



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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 6:08:27 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

The woman was shot in the head, almost execution style. The boy then went straight to school without a second thought. This shows intent and the pathology of a psychopath. This is one of those poorly developed puppies I'd take out back and put down if it were my choice because he's already been sentenced to a rabid life inside of his own and presents a clear and present danger to those around him.

boi



This is a tough one but I'd say I'd have to go with BoiJen on this one.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 6:11:38 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		The boy's defense attorney filed a motion to get the case moved to Juvenile court. The Judge is currently considering it, which is why there really is no decision as of yet.

Also it states in PA

Kids charged with murderin Pennsylvania are automatically considered adults and only a judge's decision can move the trial to junvenile court.


angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 3/17/2010 6:13:29 PM >

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 6:26:11 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		I don't doubt your statement....I just think thats ass backwards....it should take a hearing in front of a judge to move a juvenile from the jurisdiction of a juvenile court.....no matter what the offence charged.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 6:42:49 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:


Kids charged with murderin Pennsylvania are automatically considered adults and only a judge's decision can move the trial to junvenile court.


It should be the other way around...

Man, maybe the Right Wing has a point, I should live in Europe with more civilized people.. this country has a long way to go, and fighting for it to be a saner more just place is exhausting


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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 7:02:05 PM   
JonnieBoy


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From: Cymru
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Attractive people don't kill.


No, but I've been tempted

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 7:05:28 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JonnieBoy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Attractive people don't kill.


No, but I've been tempted

Pirate

Proving once again just how subjective the idea of "attractiveness"is !!!!!!

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 7:30:49 PM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
Status: offline 		It's Paddy's day Mike, everyone should be feeling attractive

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

I, for one, have to start drinking...it's St. Patty's day and I need to go honor some Irish heritage.



See ... Jen has it right.

Anyone NOT drinking by now is either going to/from/at work or a lousy heathen that deserves to be hung by the neck until dead (err ... I added that bit me self)

So I'm off to get pissed (err ... more pissed) and will, in my drunken slumber much later, contemplate where I can get tickets to watch the hanging. (the guage of rope choice part of the debate is the bit I'm looking forward too)

Pirate



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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/17/2010 7:58:21 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

The woman was shot in the head, almost execution style. The boy then went straight to school without a second thought. This shows intent and the pathology of a psychopath. This is one of those poorly developed puppies I'd take out back and put down if it were my choice because he's already been sentenced to a rabid life inside of his own and presents a clear and present danger to those around him.

boi



This is a tough one but I'd say I'd have to go with BoiJen on this one.


But of course you would, which just confirms what I have thought all along


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