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12 year old facing life in prison for shooting father's... - 3/15/2010 7:08:21 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		I woke up to this story on the news... and didnt know which way to think. Guilty? possibly. The father maintains his son's innocence. However, they have the murder weapon, the son's rifle the father gave him as a present. The fiance is dead, along with the unborn baby, who was to be named after the father.

Its a chilling story, leaving just one question in mind. Is this child guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree at 12 years old? Pennsylvania believes so, according to the state law... and only the Judge can say differently and send it to juvenile court. He is facing either life in prison (the Supreme Court in 2005 made it unlawful to give children the death penalty) or juvenile detention until 21, with no criminal record.

I have mixed feelings on this. If he committed the crime, what do you think should happen to him?

The story is here

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 7:22:04 AM   
rulemylife


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Status: offline 		I think legally we need to establish a standard and stick with it.

We had the recent story of a 17 year-old murdered by a convicted sex ofender and she was repeatedly referred to as a child.

Yet Pennsylvania law allows someone as young as a 10 year-old to be tried and sentenced as an adult.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 7:51:54 AM   
Louve00


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Status: offline 		Hmmm.  I would think how he is tried would depend on his mental capacity.  Give him a psyche evaluation, I say.  The article said he wanted this baby, but I also read in your article that...."What's more, children's brains, according to recent research, are not fully developed, which affects risk-taking and impulse control. It's that kind of research that influenced a Supreme Court case banning the death penalty for juveniles in 2005. "  So, based on that, who knows what a fleeting moment of insecurity could have led to, in this case? 

I don't know.  My gut reaction from listening to the fathers comments is the kid was spoiled.  But I would have to personally know more about the kid to determine if he should be charged for this crime as an adult.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 11:45:59 AM   
truckinslave


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Status: offline 		What I think is that there is an excellent chance this young psycopath will kill someone else.


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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 11:53:57 AM   
BoiJen


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Status: offline 		The woman was shot in the head, almost execution style. The boy then went straight to school without a second thought. This shows intent and the pathology of a psychopath. This is one of those poorly developed puppies I'd take out back and put down if it were my choice because he's already been sentenced to a rabid life inside of his own and presents a clear and present danger to those around him.

boi


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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 12:51:48 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		We share the same age of criminal responsibility - the lowest in Europe and no doubt a throwback to the days when stealing a handkerchief meant transportation.

Assuming the boy pulled the trigger and did so purposefully and without outside influence - and we ought to remember here that there is innocence until guilt is proven beyond all reasonable doubt - we still have to decide whether he understood the nature and likely result of his act, that is his frame of mind in committing the act. This includes his maturity of mind but goes further to include whether his act was premeditated or a moment of madness in response to some stimulus or an expression of an underlying psychopathology.

Establishing that the boy killed the woman is one thing. Establishing his frame of mind in doing so is another thing, and first degree murder may then become an unsuitable charge once this is discerned should it be shown that he lacked the same level of responsibility for his actions as should be accounted to a sane adult. That he lacks the same level of responsibility as an adult must be plain, for otherwise there should be no reason to discern between adults and juveniles in the justice system, regardless of an ancient more on the age of responsibility. I would hope that the judge, in reaching a decision will take note of pre-trial assessment reports rather than the media or the mob.

Meanwhile I do have to wonder at a father giving a shotgun as a present to a ten year old and then allowing that ten year old unsupervised access to it. I am all for the right to have firearms (and very much against the draconian laws we have here in that regard) but unless that right is governed by strong personal responsibility (coupled with adult supervision in this case) then it is simply a recipe for disaster.

E

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 1:00:41 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

The woman was shot in the head, almost execution style. The boy then went straight to school without a second thought. This shows intent and the pathology of a psychopath. This is one of those poorly developed puppies I'd take out back and put down if it were my choice because he's already been sentenced to a rabid life inside of his own and presents a clear and present danger to those around him.

boi



Then if he is a psychopath, which seems plausible, then treat him as such.

My point is we cannot be going back and forth treating children as children in some cases and then deciding to treat them as adults in others.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 1:02:23 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		It's frightening how quick people are to call for lynchings - underneath our semi-civilized surface, the mob is simmering, waiting to find an avenue to boil over.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 1:23:00 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		What always amazes me Kittin, is the number of people on death row over there for first degree murder, when its clear that theyre either insane or seriously retarded such that there can be no reasonable way to say they are fully responsible for what they did. Yes, the crimes are horrific and there is no doubt in many cases (though serious doubt in others) that the one on death row did them, but to ignore state of mind in reaching an appropriate sentence is so obviously a defective method that I cannot believe it occurs so often.

But then only in the US, as I heard it, can we observe a witch hunt against lawyers defending terrorist suspects at trial as if those lawyers are terrorists or terrorist sympathisers.

E

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 1:25:35 PM   
lazarus1983


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Status: offline 		Regardless of his mental state, the crime was still committed.

Do we sit back and debate the merits of shooting a rabid animal? No, we recognize it as a threat and destroy it.

And what of the father? Will he receive any punishment? The child belonged to him, and this is what his offspring did.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 1:30:42 PM   
kittinSol


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Status: offline 		You are calling for a death sentence before knowing all the facts.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 1:31:15 PM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Incorrect Lazarus - rather, "because of his state of mind the crime of murder was committed", or more likely in this instance, "because of his state of mind the crime of (insert appropriate lesser offence) was committed"

E

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 1:39:41 PM   
Louve00


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Status: offline 		Well, I keep wondering about the father, too.  I'm not sure how I would act or feel, if I lost my future wife and child and was left to face the fact my own son did it.  But I would like to think I wouldn't throw the rest of my life away, losing my house and my job, to spend countless hours and every day with the child who did this. 

I don't think he should be punished for the murders that his son committed, but he doesn't seem to be acting appropriate.  Which could also lend one to wonder just how much priority this son was given.  And could such priority let a child think he did have a right to do whatever he wanted to?

Tazzy, I'm with you.  The more I think on this, the more I don't know what to think of it.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 2:28:09 PM   
DarlingSavage


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I've briefly scanned the above replies, however, here are my initial reactions to the subject.

Whatever happened to innocent til proven guilty? I thought it was supposed to be the prosecution which must prove guilt rather than the side of the accused to prove innocence. Either way, this was an 11 yr old boy. I've only seen this one article which provides very little detail. What evidence brought the police to believe that it was the boy? I didn't see that anywhere. The father is declaring that the child is innocent.

True, I don't know what to do with children that commit brutal acts of violence. I know it happens. I also believe that a child that does so is seriously ill. Can they be helped? I have no idea.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 3:16:23 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's frightening how quick people are to call for lynchings - underneath our semi-civilized surface, the mob is simmering, waiting to find an avenue to boil over.
Apparently some memebers of the mob will not be sated with the lynching of the supposed shooter.....one of our rabid group actually has nominated the father for his own turn swinging under the stout limb.....absolutely stupifying!

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 3:16:29 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

If he committed the crime, what do you think should happen to him?


It depends on if it was an accident...it could have been

My uncle shot my aunt accidentally with a hunting rifle when he was 14... he was cleaning it and she walked in front of the barrel. If it was an accident he could be so traumatized he doesn't know whether to lie about it or what... I remember when I was 12, and 12 year olds really are not able to logically deduce whether to admit something, or to hide it, or how to react to certain things, especially traumatizing things...

If he did it on purpose? He needs to be in a psych hospital because there is something seriously wrong with the little dude and he needs to be fixed because he will probably be out again and amongst us. I would rather try to fix him than to "punish" because punishing him will not benefit society... and the larger picture is what is best for the rest of us.


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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 3:23:28 PM   
kiwisub12


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Status: offline 		IF the child did kill his future stepmother and her child, and then went on to school, he is either a stone cold psycopath, or one sick kid. Either way, I wouldn't want him living next door to me.

and when I was his age, I definitely knew right from wrong. You can't tell me that this kid didn't know that it was wrong to shoot someone.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 3:25:10 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's frightening how quick people are to call for lynchings - underneath our semi-civilized surface, the mob is simmering, waiting to find an avenue to boil over.
Apparently some memebers of the mob will not be sated with the lynching of the supposed shooter.....one of our rabid group actually has nominated the father for his own turn swinging under the stout limb.....absolutely stupifying!


His argument is that "children belong to their parents", the biggest piece of medieval crap I've heard in a long time *sigh*.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 3:28:07 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		Having followed this story, the boy walked in on the sleeping woman and shot her almost point blank then went right on to school like nothing happened. The evidence behind it is the footprints in the snow. No adult prints were found and the size of the boy's foot was different than that of the little girl who discovered the mother.

There is lots of information on the case that can be found if you look past the singular link posted here.

The thing about these types of situations is that there's a high likelihood that, upon release, the boy will commit another crime of this magnitude or greater. Repeatedly throughout criminal history, especially in males, when they start this young, they don't stop.

I'd rather not spend money on housing a large possibility of a violent, hopeless case. And that goes no matter how old the person is.

boi


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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/15/2010 3:30:24 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's frightening how quick people are to call for lynchings - underneath our semi-civilized surface, the mob is simmering, waiting to find an avenue to boil over.
Apparently some memebers of the mob will not be sated with the lynching of the supposed shooter.....one of our rabid group actually has nominated the father for his own turn swinging under the stout limb.....absolutely stupifying!


His argument is that "children belong to their parents", the biggest piece of medieval crap I've heard in a long time *sigh*.
Well my fucking son better get out there and earn me a decent supplemental living...hell not only do I own his ass....I own and owe for his education!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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