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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 7:01:34 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		It's really quite astounding how he's been judged before his trial. So, admitting he is guilty, who would dare say they'd pull the trigger and execute a twelve year old?

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 7:04:02 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It's really quite astounding how he's been judged before his trial. So, admitting he is guilty, who would dare say they'd pull the trigger and execute a twelve year old?
Many, Kittin. But i would ask the willing executioners how they would feel if this was their child?


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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 7:49:28 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 1674
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		I have to agree with you, too.  There is all kinds of doubt, indeed.  There is an ex-boyfriend who had threatened the fiance.  However, I think I read in a post on this thread there were no footprints in the snow, other than childrens' footprints.  The sad truth of this is though, is when law officials have their mind set on who did it, all other leads are dropped. 

Take the little Jon-Bonnet Ramsey case.  Her parents were villified and watched until long after the mother died of cancer, before they finally investigated other leads that did free the parents from doubt.

Look at Elizabeth Smarts case.  Look at the on-going Casey Anthony case.

We have repeatedly tried and prosecuted people on our "thoughts and suspicions" since the beginning.  Makes ya wonder just how many innocent people on death row have had their lives ended short because of assumption.

I'm not saying anyone in particular is innocent or guilty about this killing.  One thing is certain though.  Someone did kill her.  Whether the law sees fit to examine all angles is another thing.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 10:23:55 AM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

boijen, what sources are you reading from to make such a distinction about this kid? Please cite your sources because i think you are projecting or at least trying to be some go getter amatuer psychologist. You know you sound almost the same way many people use to speak about gays and lesbians.



Here's some information on the recidivism rates of violent juvenile offenders...

http://www.sgc.wa.gov/PUBS/Recidivism/Juvenile_Recidivism_Report_FY05.pdf

76% of Juvenile offenders have either a previous record or will go on to commit other crimes.

Among male juvenile offenders, the recidivism rate is 77%

http://www.springerlink.com/content/070077372p2u8825/

A study on efforts to treat recidivism predictors.


I thought recidivism issues were common knowledge. That if a person, any person, commits a violent crime, they are more likely to commit another violent crime than someone facing court or imprisonment for a first offense.

I may be an amateur shrink but in a few years I'll be the professional one.

boi

Edited to Add: There's a huge difference between pathological issues and sexuality issues. Some bigot might say things like "the way to deal with dykes and fags are to just put them down". The difference is that one of these issues is recognized by the state and the APA as a danger to society and the well being of other individuals around them. Nice try at pulling on the heart strings though.


< Message edited by BoiJen -- 3/16/2010 10:26:27 AM >

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 10:47:36 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:


Here's some information on the recidivism rates of violent juvenile offenders...

http://www.sgc.wa.gov/PUBS/Recidivism/Juvenile_Recidivism_Report_FY05.pdf

76% of Juvenile offenders have either a previous record or will go on to commit other crimes.

Among male juvenile offenders, the recidivism rate is 77%

http://www.springerlink.com/content/070077372p2u8825/

A study on efforts to treat recidivism predictors.


I thought recidivism issues were common knowledge. That if a person, any person, commits a violent crime, they are more likely to commit another violent crime than someone facing court or imprisonment for a first offense.

I may be an amateur shrink but in a few years I'll be the professional one.

boi

Edited to Add: There's a huge difference between pathological issues and sexuality issues. Some bigot might say things like "the way to deal with dykes and fags are to just put them down". The difference is that one of these issues is recognized by the state and the APA as a danger to society and the well being of other individuals around them. Nice try at pulling on the heart strings though.



So you  suggest we treat 12 year olds like adults? We put them to death?

How many 12 year olds have you known in your life? Ever have one of your own?

If you want to know why so many young people think life is cheap, well we as a society treat it like it is, as is evidenced by your desire to kill children.


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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 10:52:23 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen


The thing about these types of situations is that there's a high likelihood that, upon release, the boy will commit another crime of this magnitude or greater. Repeatedly throughout criminal history, especially in males, when they start this young, they don't stop.

I'd rather not spend money on housing a large possibility of a violent, hopeless case. And that goes no matter how old the person is.


Female mass murderers, major cases and motives

In Flash Point: The American Mass Murderer, a sociology text, author Michael Kelleher mentions a couple of female mass murderers and notes a lack of attention to them. The author, however, does not delve into a psychological analysis of these women.

That may be due, at least in part, to an American myth about "female virtue," as Patricia Pearson hypothesizes in her book, When She Was Bad: How and Why Women Get Away With Murder.

Pearson points out that while people in general tend to view women as non-aggressive, in fact, "women commit the majority of child homicides in the United States, a greater share of physical child abuse, an equal rate of sibling violence and assaults on the elderly, about a quarter of child sexual abuse, an overwhelming share of the killing of newborns, and a fair preponderance of spousal assaults."





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/16/2010 11:00:00 AM >

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 10:55:51 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		You still haven't addressed the fact that you're judging this kid before he was tried. I wonder where your hatefulness comes from? It's pretty terrifying that you're going to become a psychologist.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 10:56:59 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		No Boijen, i am asking where your absolute information you are getting regarding specifically THIS KID. Because in the articles i am reading i don't see anything concrete or even remotely factual about this particular kid which you seem to have made a concrete determination about.

I didn't pull at heartstrings at all, i simply said the way you sound is the same way people thought about gays and lesbians for a long time because they did chalk it up to a mental issue.

From what you cited as your sources, it seems you have no real information to base your determinations about this kid on as you haven't even cited sources ABOUT the case. if you are going to be a professional shrink in a couple years, i hope you learn a hell of a lot by then instead of continuing to draw assumptions and determinations simply because you have read articles about something rather than applying aspects specifically on a case-by-case basis.

Being an amatuer shrink is not necessarily harmful because you don't have any real power of determination but i really hope you learn more about drawing conclusions and determinations in the years you have to go prior to becoming a professional shrink. You are drawing your conclusions on media reports instead of actual evidence, facts, or knowledge of the boy. Most shinks i know don't make determinations based on MEDIA reports maybe that's what they are teaching people nowadays.

angel

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 10:58:39 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		He isn't all that attractive of a kid (kind of creepy looking) and he is kind of chunky....Throw the book at the fucker!!!!

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 11:09:34 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		I strongly believe that we should have two sets of laws and punishments based upon the overall attractiveness of the offender.

In this case if the kid was remotely cute I would have a much easier time believing that it was self defense and that his future step-mother was probably going to kill him later that night. If this kid was not so fat I could easily be swayed to believe that his father's fiancee was kind of a cunt and that she as well as her unborn kid probably deserved killing.

As things stand, the kid looks guilty as Hell.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 11:26:30 AM   
youngsubgeoff


Posts: 900
Joined: 9/25/2007
From: The Asylum
Status: offline 		Wait a minute, listen to some of you. Your calling for a death sentence on a 12 YEAR OLD CHILD. A fucking KID. He's not even a teenager. Ya know, maybe he got on the bus and went to school cause he was in shock at what he just did. I doubt this kid is a sociopath. I think something scared him, and he acted impulsively, as children do.

God, and people think IM messed up? Shit!

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 11:36:19 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: youngsubgeoff

Wait a minute, listen to some of you. Your calling for a death sentence on a 12 YEAR OLD CHILD. A fucking KID. He's not even a teenager. Ya know, maybe he got on the bus and went to school cause he was in shock at what he just did. I doubt this kid is a sociopath. I think something scared him, and he acted impulsively, as children do.

God, and people think IM messed up? Shit!


I think I have only seen one person advocating for the execution of this kid, and there are lots of people that are having the same reaction as you are to that....

It is really hard to believe this country has situations in which kids younger than this one have been charged and tried as adults. It makes me think that we might as well be in the Dark Ages in some places in this country


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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 11:48:05 AM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		Oh julia and Geoff, if only this kid was attractive than maybe I could buy into your "save the world" belief system.



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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 12:06:18 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
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Status: offline 		Attractive people don't kill.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 12:10:32 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline 		The victim's body was discovered by her youngest daughter, just 4.

Prosecutors allege there was tension between Jordan and Houk, who had moved into the father's farmhouse. They say Jordan was jealous of Houk and her two daughters. The unborn child was a boy.

"There are no signs of forced entry," Bongivengo added. "No signs of a robber or burglar."

Jordan's supporters deny any rivalry or bad feelings between the boy and his would-be stepmother.

Prosecutors also allege that there is strong physical evidence linking Jordan to the crime. Police found gunshot residue on Jordan's shirt. A state trooper testified that the gun smelled like it had been freshly fired. His defense team argues that many of Jordan's shirts and guns had residue because he frequently hunted with his father.

Also, police said they discovered a blanket covering the gun with a quarter-sized hole burned into it. With outcome of the decertification hearing still months away, there is little consolation for the victims' family. The victim's family wants Jordan to be charged as an adult for taking two lives, they say.

They remember Kenzie Houk as beautiful, friendly and popular. Family members say they miss attending weekly bingo nights, cooking dinner and watching Steelers games with her.

"She'd give her last penny to everyone," said her mother, Debbie Houk. "She loved everyone and didn't have a mean bone in her body."

Debbie Houk, said she never expected to be a mother again. But after her daughter was slain, she now cares for her grandchildren.

"The day Kenzie was murdered, the whole family was served with a life sentence," she said. "There are a 4-year-old and 7-year-old who are serving life right now. They are never going to see their mom."

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/02/10/pennsylvania.young.murder.defendant/?hpt=C1

“There was an issue with jealousy. He told my son stuff,” said Houk’s brother-in-law, Jason Kraner, 34. “He actually told my son that he wanted to do that to her.”

Police say the weapon used by the 11-year-old boy accused of killing his father’s pregnant girlfriend was a youth model 20-gauge shotgun that apparently belonged to the fifth-grader.

Jordan Brown, the son of Houk’s live-in boyfriend

http://a11news.com/1472/jordan-brown/

O'Brien said the answers Brown gave during the evaluation showed that he harbored resentment and is very aware and sensitive to things he believes are unfair to him.

And many believe Brown harbored resentment toward Houk. The psychiatrist said Brown has not accepted responsibility for the murders and that he has a very limited likelihood of rehabilitation.

http://www.wkbn.com/mostpopular/story/Jordan-Brown-Described-as-Resentful-Having-No/nQzCiD1hzkO7wAtvizF1aA.cspx



His defense attorney and family is obviously going to say "He didn't do it". And try and get as much public opinion behind him as possible. This kid thought he had the right to take a life. 2 in fact. That kind of entitlement doesn't go away with age. He did an adult act...committed an adult crime with consequences that will go on for the rest of the victims' family's lives. Why on Earth would this boy be exempt from suffering the consequences of his own actions just because if his age? It's like telling me that an 18 year old shouldn't be allowed to drink but a 21 year old can. If an 11 year old can take someone's life, then the 11 year old can deal with the punishments associated with the act.

I also believe the father should be held accountable for negligent homicide. What retard gives his 11 year old open access to a fire arm without supervision?

boi

< Message edited by BoiJen -- 3/16/2010 12:11:11 PM >

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 12:11:22 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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Status: offline 		Only three countries execute children.

The U.S., Iran, and North Korea.

Food for thought.

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 12:13:25 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Only three countries execute children.

The U.S., Iran, and North Korea.

Food for thought.


The U.S. no longer finds it acceptable to execute "children". So little Chucky can get away from the real consequences of his actions no matter how many people he actually kills.


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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 12:16:33 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Oh julia and Geoff, if only this kid was attractive than maybe I could buy into your "save the world" belief system.




Just look at it this way, beauty is in the eye of the beholder....

I thought the kid was kinda cute.


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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 12:17:35 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		I have done extensive research on the effects of outer beauty and how that correlates to poverty as well as criminal activity.

People that are deemed to be beautiful, symmetrically correct and stunning are much less likely to live below the poverty line or ever be convicted of committing a serious crime (felony).

I started this research in Indiana but could not find enough attractive participants to form a large enough test group that would validate or lead to any meaningful conclusions.

So we focussed on Chicago and the results were staggering. God rewards the pretty with riches and the incapability to kill. As it should be.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/16/2010 12:33:01 PM >

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RE: 12 year old facing life in prison for shooting fath... - 3/16/2010 12:19:47 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Only three countries execute children.

The U.S., Iran, and North Korea.

Food for thought.


I am surprised, because those little Korean fuckers can be pretty damn adorable.

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