RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration

RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (Full Version)

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TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/3/2006 8:33:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou I saw no indication in the article that the goal of the nut removal was for a sex change. If that were the case it would be a gross oversite not to mention it. As stated the article read as the only purpose was to remove the participants nuts. In that case yes, I'd say removing a body part without having a purpose is mental. I saw no indication in your post that there were "sane" reasons to want your nuts chopped off. So, if you want your nuts chopped off for a sex change, then it is not insane, but if you wanted them chopped off for another reason, then you are insane? Are there any other reasons that would qualify as "sane" to you? Is there any particular reason we should be coming to you for these definitions? If not you, who should we go to? Why them? Why not let each person decide what is a good reason and leave out all of this classification of other people as insane? Many (I would dare say most) would think the things you like to do quite insane...should they be allowed to stop you from doing those things? Should you be arrested for assault even if the girl you assaulted wanted it more than life itself? Should she be locked up as insane for wanting it, and you locked up for "non-malicious assault"? If not, where do you draw the line? Medical procedures? Which ones? Scarification? Suture play? Piercings? Bodymods? quote: It's seems you'd think it was just fine for anyone to be able to set up shop and offer surgeries. Nowhere in my posts do I even imply any such thing. What I say is that castration is a very simple and relatively safe procedure. What I say is that doctors are given far too much deference for what they do. What I say is that I do not trust the certification process (and what I will add now is that I demand much more than just a license before I let anyone treat, let alone cut, me). Taggard

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/3/2006 8:53:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou So, you're a anarchist. I am not an anarchist, I just am. Anarchy is. The official name for what I believe is Zen Anarchy. I am sure you have seen (and laughed at) the people who see Jesus in their cheese sandwich, or the Virgin Mary in a water stain on a concrete wall, right? The human mind is like that. We super-impose patterns on chaos. You may think you see organization and "government", but, in reality, it is the workings of anarchy. There is no governement, just a bunch of people seeing the same Virgin Mary...it really isn't there. quote: If you don't believe anyone is more qualified than you on any topic. Well, you must also be God. You certainly love your straw men. No where do I imply I know more than anyone about anything. What I say is that I do not trust the government to tell me what is safe, nor do I trust them to tell me who is safe. I have to do my homework, I have to find sources I do trust. They exist, most often in the private sector, they just are a bit harder to find. quote: I apologize, for making the ascertion that someone who studies about one particular thing for 8 years or more might know more than someone who gets a hard on cutting off random peoples nuts. How much time do you actually think most doctors spend studying castration? I bet the guys they arrested have more actual experience with the procedure than 99% of all doctors worldwide. quote: Now, am I fan of government, No. Am I fan of the medical profession. No. But that doesn't mean I'm going to condone just anybody and everybody having the right to do surgeries without consequence. Whatever, how you draw that one is either a Government lapdog or on your side condoning no regulations is beyond me. There is a huge middle ground there. What I don't get is why you feel it is your place to tell other people what is "safe" and what is not. Why do you feel you have a right to tell people what they can or can not do? Who died and made you the Safety Czar? smile I have enough trouble worrying about my own safety...why do you want to take on that responsibility for the rest of the world as well? Taggard

JohnWarren -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/3/2006 9:02:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty quote: It's seems you'd think it was just fine for anyone to be able to set up shop and offer surgeries. Nowhere in my posts do I even imply any such thing. What I say is that castration is a very simple and relatively safe procedure. What I say is that doctors are given far too much deference for what they do. What I say is that I do not trust the certification process (and what I will add now is that I demand much more than just a license before I let anyone treat, let alone cut, me). Taggard My original degree was in animal pathology and as a undergraduate student I did castrations on everything from chickens (tricky because the testies are in the body cavity) to bulls (a bit humbling). They really weren't that difficult and all that was needed was a bit of psychomotor skill and sterile technique. Now, like Taggart, I'm not arguing this is something for everyone, but I do agree with him that it's a relatively simple and fairly safe technique and I can't see why more than the level of training (a different training of course) presently required for tattooists and branders would be needed.

NickInSLC -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/3/2006 9:02:54 AM)
Good luck with the arguement of who has the right to make those decisions for us Taggart. I've made it several times and it's yet to be addressed. The comment that I find most humorous is that this was done on a kitchen table with a butcher knife and not the proper tools. And I ask what kind of beginners does NeedToUseYou play with? The play parties I go to have plenty of real life purpose built medical devices to stock a pretty good sized doctors office. However, castration is a very simple procedure for which I personally have the tool to perform. It's called an elastrator. Cost me 20$ at IFA. Of course, I never wear the bands for more than 20 minutes, because my motivation is intense play and not castration. But leave the band on and there's zero blood supply to the testicles, you could then cut them off with no blood loss, or simply wait a couple weeks, and they'll fall off of their own accord.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/3/2006 11:52:54 AM)
quote: I saw no indication in your post that there were "sane" reasons to want your nuts chopped off. So, if you want your nuts chopped off for a sex change, then it is not insane, but if you wanted them chopped off for another reason, then you are insane? Are there any other reasons that would qualify as "sane" to you? Is there any particular reason we should be coming to you for these definitions? No particular reason anyone would come to me. I never said you should. I guess expressing a opinion is the same as dictating in this circle. So what I think getting your nuts snipped off is mental. Oh well, live with it. I never demanded you have to agree with it. quote: If not you, who should we go to? Why them? Why not let each person decide what is a good reason and leave out all of this classification of other people as insane? I believe I posed this exact question to you several posts ago, but you never answered. If the government which you reject can't judge mental illness, and certifications mean nothing to you. Then who is to judge. That is pretty much my point. Because there are mentally off people, I'm talking legitimately mental people, so in your system who makes that judgement, since there is no central authority who determines such things? As for me answering. Until I see a workable alternative I don't see the point of changing the current system. You are the one proposing a change not me, so you tell me your solution. quote: Many (I would dare say most) would think the things you like to do quite insane...should they be allowed to stop you from doing those things? Should you be arrested for assault even if the girl you assaulted wanted it more than life itself? Should she be locked up as insane for wanting it, and you locked up for "non-malicious assault"? If not, where do you draw the line? Medical procedures? Which ones? Scarification? Suture play? Piercings? Bodymods? First, I never told you what I'm into. Again my point is if there is no government authority or certifications then who makes that ascertion. So, you tell me. Currently, I'm comfortable with any risks I take. quote: Nowhere in my posts do I even imply any such thing. What I say is that castration is a very simple and relatively safe procedure. What I say is that doctors are given far too much deference for what they do. What I say is that I do not trust the certification process (and what I will add now is that I demand much more than just a license before I let anyone treat, let alone cut, me). Okay, maybe I took your comments out of context on that point. But it still begs the question if you don't trust the government or certifications who makes the decisions of who is of sound mind. Trying to break argument down. Here Well, I think we can agree some aren't in a state to make decisions for themselves. (yes, no) If yes, you don't think government is qualified to tell individuals they can't do medical procedures on individuals(yes, no) If yes, then if the government doesn't manage medical procedures how can they control the mentally ill from getting unnecessary or dangerous medical procedures performed. If you've taken any central authority out then who protects those who are legitimately incapable of making informed decisions.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/3/2006 12:10:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou So, you're a anarchist. quote: I am not an anarchist, I just am. Anarchy is. The official name for what I believe is Zen Anarchy. I am sure you have seen (and laughed at) the people who see Jesus in their cheese sandwich, or the Virgin Mary in a water stain on a concrete wall, right? The human mind is like that. We super-impose patterns on chaos. You may think you see organization and "government", but, in reality, it is the workings of anarchy. There is no governement, just a bunch of people seeing the same Virgin Mary...it really isn't there. yes, I understand government is a made up concept. I understand that if we stopped believing in it. It would not exist. Still, I've not heard a better way of doing things thus I don't see a point to change it. As any solution I can conceive outside a government solution would invariably lead to a lowering of safety, standard of living, and educational opportunities. I'm more than willing of learning of a real world solution. Though it doesn't sound like you have it. I could be wrong, I'm skeptical. quote: If you don't believe anyone is more qualified than you on any topic. Well, you must also be God. quote: You certainly love your straw men. No where do I imply I know more than anyone about anything. What I say is that I do not trust the government to tell me what is safe, nor do I trust them to tell me who is safe. I have to do my homework, I have to find sources I do trust. They exist, most often in the private sector, they just are a bit harder to find. I agree to a point when you state it so, but again everybody is not you and governments in theory do what is best for the largest segment of the population possible. You don't need protection. I don't need protection. Some do. And thus they must manage the system to prevent those from being taken advantage of. Thus the reason why individuals aren't allowed to perform medical procedures. quote: I apologize, for making the ascertion that someone who studies about one particular thing for 8 years or more might know more than someone who gets a hard on cutting off random peoples nuts. quote: How much time do you actually think most doctors spend studying castration? I bet the guys they arrested have more actual experience with the procedure than 99% of all doctors worldwide. quote: Probably not much but my presumption is they have better overall knowledge, and could make better decisions. For example if a person had a heart condition, or disease that may adversely effect the individual going through the procedure. They'd be able to identify that and take appropriate measures. A person just specialized in castration as kink would not be concerned or knowledgeable of taking such factors and appropriate precautions. Or be equipped to deal with such things. quote: Now, am I fan of government, No. Am I fan of the medical profession. No. But that doesn't mean I'm going to condone just anybody and everybody having the right to do surgeries without consequence. Whatever, how you draw that one is either a Government lapdog or on your side condoning no regulations is beyond me. There is a huge middle ground there. quote: What I don't get is why you feel it is your place to tell other people what is "safe" and what is not. Why do you feel you have a right to tell people what they can or can not do? Who died and made you the Safety Czar? smile I don't think it's my place to tell you what is safe. I think it's my place to give my opinion. You are more than willing to give yours. quote: I have enough trouble worrying about my own safety...why do you want to take on that responsibility for the rest of the world as well? Again, why is someone posting a counterview considered bashing people into conformity. As I see it three have posted counter to my view, so who's bashing who? Anyway, I thought the point of the boards was to give opinions. Guess not. Long live King TallDarkAndWitty. smiles

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/3/2006 12:24:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NickInSLC Good luck with the arguement of who has the right to make those decisions for us Taggart. I've made it several times and it's yet to be addressed. I asked that question before you replied on this thread, and I'm still waiting on a answer. My answer is the current system. It's the people wanting to change the systems job to propose a better system. I'm confused why I should have to think of one when I'm saying I'm fine with the governments role in the medical field. quote: The comment that I find most humorous is that this was done on a kitchen table with a butcher knife and not the proper tools. And I ask what kind of beginners does NeedToUseYou play with? The play parties I go to have plenty of real life purpose built medical devices to stock a pretty good sized doctors office. However, castration is a very simple procedure for which I personally have the tool to perform. Granted I know little of castration. I'm a bit flamboyant in my examples. But the general argument is why is the government allowed to tell adults what medical procedures they can have and who can give them. And my argument is if the government doesn't have authority to ceritify people to be able to perform certain procedures, it opens a pandora's box of possible disasters. quote: It's called an elastrator. Cost me 20$ at IFA. Of course, I never wear the bands for more than 20 minutes, because my motivation is intense play and not castration. But leave the band on and there's zero blood supply to the testicles, you could then cut them off with no blood loss, or simply wait a couple weeks, and they'll fall off of their own accord. Interesting.

BitaTruble -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/3/2006 2:20:54 PM)
Well, I'm stunned. I don't know where most of you all live, but the country where I live has this little thing called the 'justice system'. I know it's rather old-fashioned and prehaps even quaint, but a trial would seem to be in order before the conviction. The 'victims' are already assumed mentally ill? How did anyone come to that conclusion? I'd like a breast reduction. The damn things hang to my knees and I just think I'd look better if they were smaller. Does that make me mentally ill as well? Matthew 19:12 - For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it]. The only people who know 'why' these men choose castration are the men themselves. Maybe they are bible thumpers trying to get into Heaven. Maybe they think they'd look better without the sacks hanging down. Maybe they don't want children and don't need those testicles any longer. Maybe they are into extreme body modification. Maybe they wanted to show their devotion and loyalty to Master Rick. Maybe they don't give a shit what anyone else thinks of their choices. I make no assumptions because I don't have the facts, but there are some people on this board that I can only pray never sit on a jury where I'm on trial. Celeste

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/3/2006 3:38:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble Well, I'm stunned. I don't know where most of you all live, but the country where I live has this little thing called the 'justice system'. I know it's rather old-fashioned and prehaps even quaint, but a trial would seem to be in order before the conviction. The 'victims' are already assumed mentally ill? How did anyone come to that conclusion? I'd like a breast reduction. The damn things hang to my knees and I just think I'd look better if they were smaller. Does that make me mentally ill as well? Matthew 19:12 - For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it]. The only people who know 'why' these men choose castration are the men themselves. Maybe they are bible thumpers trying to get into Heaven. Maybe they think they'd look better without the sacks hanging down. Maybe they don't want children and don't need those testicles any longer. Maybe they are into extreme body modification. Maybe they wanted to show their devotion and loyalty to Master Rick. Maybe they don't give a shit what anyone else thinks of their choices. I make no assumptions because I don't have the facts, but there are some people on this board that I can only pray never sit on a jury where I'm on trial. Celeste Okay, I don't know why it's impossible for people to seperate personal opinion from a universal declaration as if I'm personally telling you want to do.. Here's the deal I personally think it's mental. But fortunately I know I'm not qualified to make that decision for everybody. So, I say that's why we have trained professionals to make such decisions that are required to train extensively in there profession of choice. The counterpoint is everyone should just make their own decisions, and the government shouldn't have any say in it. Well, then the question is if someone is mentally ill, by a psychiatric definition then who is to make the judgement. (Because they'd want no government involvement). So to take that viewpoint would mean all was necessary was for anyone to ask anything done to themselves, and it'd be okay. Even if they were mentally incompetent (under any definition you want to use). I guess I'm not getting my point across,

BitaTruble -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/3/2006 4:34:55 PM)
I used 'fast reply' Needtouseyou. That post wasn't directed at you in particular. I should have clarified. Since you brought it up though.. I'm curious. You have called the gentlemen in question 'mental' and stated that such was an opinion. Given that you have no facts to their motivations, on what do you base your 'opinion' that they are mental? Celeste

PlayfulOne -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/3/2006 6:05:23 PM)
So the whole point is if you don't agree with it they must be mental? They made their choices and you are making many assumptions based on what you think. I am very attatched to mine but if anyone else wants to have theris chopped by all means they should be able to. Performed by a doctor, azpparently you want them to have to pay a large fee if they can talk anyone into doing it. None of the men were suffering it would seem so the ones performing the castratino apparently had some idea of what they were doing. I Iknow people who have castrated many bulls and horses and I assure you they could do one quicker, easier, and probably better than a docotor. K

PlayfulOne -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/3/2006 6:07:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PlayfulOne So the whole point is if you don't agree with it they must be mental? They made their choices and you are making many assumptions based on what you think. I am very attatched to mine but if anyone else wants to have theirs chopped by all means they should be able to. Performed by a doctor, azpparently you want them to have to pay a large fee if they can talk anyone into doing it. None of the men were suffering it would seem so the ones performing the castraation apparently had some idea of what they were doing. I know people who have castrated many bulls and horses and I assure you they could do one quicker, easier, and probably better than a doctor. K Sorry, I was correctng my poor typing and quoted myself, lol

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/4/2006 4:23:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou yes, I understand government is a made up concept. I understand that if we stopped believing in it. It would not exist. That's almost, but not quite right. It doesn't exist, even if we all believe it does. If we all started believing in Santa Clause, we wouldn't get any additional toys for Xmas. quote: Still, I've not heard a better way of doing things thus I don't see a point to change it. This is where the hard part comes in. There is no better way, because there is no way in the first place. There is you (and your actions), and that is all. You can't change it, even if you wanted to, because there is no it to change. quote: As any solution I can conceive outside a government solution would invariably lead to a lowering of safety, standard of living, and educational opportunities. I'm more than willing of learning of a real world solution. Though it doesn't sound like you have it. I could be wrong, I'm skeptical. There is no government solution, because there is no government. What you suggest is abdicating the choice for what is sane (or not) and what is safe (or not) to some other group of people, and letting them make the call. This is a reasonable choice. Just understand what it is, and why it is not accepted in a community such as this, and how it looks hypocritical to many of us. I am certain you would not listen to that same group of people were they to tell you that you could not persue your interests in fisting or face slapping or even if they told you you had to stop smoking. quote: I agree to a point when you state it so, but again everybody is not you and governments in theory do what is best for the largest segment of the population possible. Do you really think this is true? Do you think that. in the whole, the fiction of government has done more good or harm? I am unconvinced... quote: You don't need protection. I don't need protection. Some do. Who? How do you know? Who has harmed them? Are you certain that those whom you think need protection from the others who think they are the government won't be protected by other others, perhaps family and friends? quote: And thus they must manage the system to prevent those from being taken advantage of. Who is "they"? "They" is you and me, no? Why not just help people yourself? Why pretend a government is helping them? Is it to sleep better? Government, much like religion, serves a few psychological purpose...one of which is relief of guilt. quote: Thus the reason why individuals aren't allowed to perform medical procedures. It is incorrect to say that "individuals aren't allowed to perform medical procedures". They are punished by other people if they are caught performing them. quote: I don't think it's my place to tell you what is safe. I think it's my place to give my opinion. You are more than willing to give yours. By acting as if the government exists, and by giving your support to the notion, you are saying that others have a right to tell me what to do. When you advocate for intrusive government, it is no longer an opinion, it is an opinion backed up by a gun. quote: Long live King TallDarkAndWitty. smiles From your lips to god's ears. Taggard

mantis65 -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/4/2006 6:00:14 AM)
Were they victims? Were they irrational? I don’t know but I doubt it. Thousands of adults every day make terrible (in my opinion) decisions and go take crack and heroin altering their life in ways I see as negative. As far s I see it these guys didn’t lose a bet or go out and get a crappy tattoo when drunk. i think they thought about this for years (at least i hope so) This was a concept they were obsessed with and probably were aware of the risks. The person doing the castrating was also not naïve and he knew the risks or at least he knew he could be arrested or something could have gone wrong and leads to an infection and death. I guess I don’t see a real victim here they were Consenting adults and far as I know not psychotic from what I have read. still not something i would do but ....dont more woman die at illegal Botox parties than men in botched castartions? theses guys at least are alive.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/4/2006 10:12:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble I used 'fast reply' Needtouseyou. That post wasn't directed at you in particular. I should have clarified. Since you brought it up though.. I'm curious. You have called the gentlemen in question 'mental' and stated that such was an opinion. Given that you have no facts to their motivations, on what do you base your 'opinion' that they are mental? Celeste I assumed it was since I was the only one taking that stance on the thread. To answer your question though. I come to decisions whenever I read something. Given more accurate information it may change. Sorry, that's how my brain works I read something evaluate it. I don't read something record it like a computer and come to no conclusions. Well why did I come to my conclusions, well I have three severely mentally ill people in my family. People who see and hear things that aren't there, people who will say you said something and think they're talking to you with physic powers even though there not, think they time travel etc.... These are the only people I've ever talked to that have ever mentioned removing body parts as if it was a good idea. Like removing there womb because the devil was trying to impregnate them. I could write a book on the craziness true mentally ill people believe is rational. So, if out of the hundreds of people I've had some degree of personal interaction. The only three that talked of such things were certified non-questioning mentally ill. That leads me to believe the odds that these men are more likely than not to fall into the same category. And don't even question whether they really are, they are, multiple psychiatrists, everybody who's met them agrees(edited to clarify in this sentence I'm talking about my relatives). My question is why do you judge they're not mental? It's the same thing really. Given you have no facts either to make that call. Is it because you've met alot of people that desire this that are otherwise normal. Or is it just because you have no experience with people that think such actions are rational.

BitaTruble -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/4/2006 10:37:54 AM)
quote: My question is why do you judge they're not mental? How did you come to that conclusion? You seem to form a lot of opinions which are not based on facts because what I actually said was... quote: I make no assumptions because I don't have the facts, but there are some people on this board that I can only pray never sit on a jury where I'm on trial. You've made a mistake by attributing to me something which is untrue. If you can make a mistake here, isn't it possible you can be mistaken about the mental state of three people whom you don't know? You know you are not qualified to make that sort of judgement and even if you were qualified, you can't do so by reading an article in some rag and not doing in depth interviews with those in question. You may not be wrong ... but isn't it possible that you are because you certainly were wrong about me. Whew.. sure glad I'm actually here to defend myself or someone might be trying to put me into a straight jacket. Hmmmm.. not that I wouldn't like that sort of thing. Celeste

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/4/2006 11:49:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou yes, I understand government is a made up concept. I understand that if we stopped believing in it. It would not exist. quote: That's almost, but not quite right. It doesn't exist, even if we all believe it does. If we all started believing in Santa Clause, we wouldn't get any additional toys for Xmas. Ok, I think I understand the philosphy you adhere to. I don't agree with that concept though. Santa Clause does exist to people who believe in it. It's not provable but to them it just as much exists as it doesn't to you. Truth and existance is merely what you think it is, it is no more or no less. So, government does exists. What is government: It's a group of people performing in a specific heirarchy and postitions in order to achieve a goal. Similiar to a Corporation, the difference being the government, tasks are in regards to the whole of the country, and corporations are only concerned in areas pertaining to there spere of business. Those people work according to the concepts held by there particular agency therefore government exist, since the effects of such a entity are readily apparent via the people that act on behalf of the idea. So, I think your definition of exists is different than mine. quote: Still, I've not heard a better way of doing things thus I don't see a point to change it. quote: This is where the hard part comes in. There is no better way, because there is no way in the first place. There is you (and your actions), and that is all. You can't change it, even if you wanted to, because there is no it to change. So, why complain about something that doesn't exist then? I think that thought you displayed wasn't entirely thought out to be what you are trying to say. If you are arguing that ideas don't exists, then how do explain there impact on the world. Ideas have led to every single thing around you. Government is a idea. So, how could something that manifests itself in reality not exist. Logic is a Idea, does it not exist. Existance is a idea does it exist. If you are arguing that nothing exists, then why are you arguing about it? Since it is for nothing. The mere act of doing implies that you must think something exists. Because your efforts are to change something though I'm unsure what that would be. If it is to change my actions, well my actions are driven by ideas. Which it sounds as if you don't think exist. quote: As any solution I can conceive outside a government solution would invariably lead to a lowering of safety, standard of living, and educational opportunities. I'm more than willing of learning of a real world solution. Though it doesn't sound like you have it. I could be wrong, I'm skeptical. quote: There is no government solution, because there is no government. What you suggest is abdicating the choice for what is sane (or not) and what is safe (or not) to some other group of people, and letting them make the call. This is a reasonable choice. Just understand what it is, and why it is not accepted in a community such as this, and how it looks hypocritical to many of us. I am certain you would not listen to that same group of people were they to tell you that you could not persue your interests in fisting or face slapping or even if they told you you had to stop smoking. Well, it's a good thing I don't care what people think. I participate in the boards for the sole purpose to see other peoples view, if I think about it and what someone says makes sense, I incorporate it. if not I disregard it. But the goal isn't to appear any particular way to the community. As far as if the government told me I couldn't do something I thought I should be able to do. Well, of course, I'd still do it. But you miss my point. My point isn't that you can't do what you want, my point is the government shouldn't condone everyone doing everything they want to do. And in my view the government should discourage some activities as in this case. Not because it's about ball chopping, but rather because it's about people performing medical procedures without a license or supervision. I don't agree with that. You may but in this particular instance the governments stand is in line with mine. quote: I agree to a point when you state it so, but again everybody is not you and governments in theory do what is best for the largest segment of the population possible. quote: Do you really think this is true? Do you think that. in the whole, the fiction of government has done more good or harm? I am unconvinced... Yes, I think the existance of a government is better than no governement. I Without government you have no transit system, you have no way of establishing trade standards, you have no way of developing a centrally controlled defense policy. Without a government, you would have a fracturing of standards, making it impossible to conduct any global or even any country wide trade. You wouldn't have the internet either, as the government enforces regulations regarding the communication standards. You would have very little in terms of material things or food if you live in city. You'd have no money, as that is printed and regulated by the government(It's not backed by anything of value). So, trade would devolve into bartering, doesn't work well in a large scale economy. The laws would dramaticly vary from town to town. I think you need to think that theory out a little more. Unless you want to live without the modern comforts and be a farmer. quote: You don't need protection. I don't need protection. Some do. quote: Who? How do you know? Who has harmed them? Are you certain that those whom you think need protection from the others who think they are the government won't be protected by other others, perhaps family and friends? The retarded, many of whom are abused by their own families(Neighbor had a retarded son, used to beat the fuck out him, eventually he was taken into government care), children, 1000's of which are abused even with the government imposing regulations on parents(I find it difficult to believe parents are suddenly all going to be better people with the absence of possible consequence imposed by the government). Elderly, more in the case of the mentally incompetent(I used to sell insurance and these types will just hand you a check book to fill out there insurance premiums, you actually have to ask them to talk to their kids, then the children will explain they have power of attorney), nice so if the government wasn't there to tell me I couldn't accept a check from a mentally incompetent(would go to jail), I could have cleaned them out. Easily. More general examples of how government regualtions help in a more general sense. Another example Pollution control, Corporations without government regulations would just dump all there toxic shit in the rivers (everyone harmed). (Some still try to even with heavy government fines). Medicine, if there were absolutely no government regulations on proving safety of drugs, everything would just be dumped on the market and promoted to be a solution well and above the merit of the product(Companies already do this to a degree, but are kept in some check by regulations). I could think of literally hundreds if not thousands of examples of how things would be worse without regulations. quote: And thus they must manage the system to prevent those from being taken advantage of. quote: Who is "they"? "They" is you and me, no? Why not just help people yourself? Why pretend a government is helping them? Is it to sleep better? Government, much like religion, serves a few psychological purpose...one of which is relief of guilt. LOL, you seem very concerned with my sleeping habits. I sleep better than anyone I know, but it has nothing to do with the government. No, government also serves the purpose of acting as a large collective, capable of addressing very large organizations, a individual would not have the resources or time to address. quote: Thus the reason why individuals aren't allowed to perform medical procedures. quote: It is incorrect to say that "individuals aren't allowed to perform medical procedures". They are punished by other people if they are caught performing them. True, they are punished by other people, but the government generally reflects the values of the general populace. If you don't like the government policies I'd think your time would be better spent not bashing the government, but changing the populations view of what you'd like to do. quote: I don't think it's my place to tell you what is safe. I think it's my place to give my opinion. You are more than willing to give yours. quote: By acting as if the government exists, and by giving your support to the notion, you are saying that others have a right to tell me what to do. When you advocate for intrusive government, it is no longer an opinion, it is an opinion backed up by a gun. You are over the top. Every form of power is believe it not is backed up by a gun, club, sword, or an idea. Yes, I believe we don't have the right to do anything we want without consequence. Sorry, I'm not a convert. quote: Long live King TallDarkAndWitty. smiles quote: From your lips to god's ears. Taggard I'm thinking you aren't joking about that. LOL, sorta. Thanks.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/4/2006 12:03:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: My question is why do you judge they're not mental? How did you come to that conclusion? You seem to form a lot of opinions which are not based on facts because what I actually said was... quote: I make no assumptions because I don't have the facts, but there are some people on this board that I can only pray never sit on a jury where I'm on trial. You've made a mistake by attributing to me something which is untrue. If you can make a mistake here, isn't it possible you can be mistaken about the mental state of three people whom you don't know? You know you are not qualified to make that sort of judgement and even if you were qualified, you can't do so by reading an article in some rag and not doing in depth interviews with those in question. You may not be wrong ... but isn't it possible that you are because you certainly were wrong about me. Whew.. sure glad I'm actually here to defend myself or someone might be trying to put me into a straight jacket. Hmmmm.. not that I wouldn't like that sort of thing. Celeste My apologies for saying you came to a conclusion. I think they are mental you say you don't know. I believe I already addressed that I might be wrong when I said if I learned something else about it I could change my opinion(reread post please, I believe it was the second line). I already answered why I think that because the only people I've met who talked of doing such things were trully mentally il(The rest of the post I previously made minus the second paragraph). I'm unsure what else I can tell you as I already explained my position. You've explained that you don't make assumptions. (edited to changed word from conclusions to assumptions) Ok, thanks.

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/4/2006 12:47:13 PM)
I am afraid there are a few basic differences of outlook that may make this conversation (which I have very much enjoyed) impossible to continue. But I want to try, so I will lay out a few basic premises. If we both agree to them, then we can continue this thought provoking correspondence. 1) There are two kinds of existence. The first is objective existence, meaning something exists in the objective reality outside of your own mind. The second is subjective existence, meaning that it exists inside of your mind. Santa Claus exists subjectively in the minds of many people, yet he has no true objective existence…can we agree to that? 2) Things that exist subjectively do not exist objectively. Thinking of something does not make it come into being in an objective sense. 3) The objective reality is real. It does exist and no amount of pure subjective thought or wishing can change it. If we can not agree to these, then perhaps there is no more to say… Back to the discussion: quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou I don't agree with that concept though. Santa Clause does exist to people who believe in it. It's not provable but to them it just as much exists as it doesn't to you. Truth and existance is merely what you think it is, it is no more or no less. So, government does exists. As long as you acknowledge that this is purely a subjective existence, and can have no true impact on objective reality, I would agree with this. quote: So, I think your definition of exists is different than mine. Perhaps my definition is just a bit narrower than yours. When I say exists, I tend to mean “exists in the objective reality.” I can be more specific with my wording if it will help. quote: So, why complain about something that doesn't exist then? I think that thought you displayed wasn't entirely thought out to be what you are trying to say. I never complained about government. I complained about the attitude that people want to tell other people what they can and can’t do and use the fiction of government to implement those desires. quote: If you are arguing that ideas don't exists, then how do explain there impact on the world. Ideas have led to every single thing around you. Ideas, in and of themselves, can have no impact on objective reality. People acting objectively can impact objective reality. Their motivations are meaningless…it is their actions that change the world. Ideas may be useful, but without objective action, they are impotent. quote: Government is a idea. So, how could something that manifests itself in reality not exist. By people acting on those ideas. quote: Logic is a Idea, does it not exist. Existance is a idea does it exist. These things only exist subjectively. quote: If you are arguing that nothing exists, then why are you arguing about it? Things that objectively exist, exist. quote: If it is to change my actions, well my actions are driven by ideas. Which it sounds as if you don't think exist. Your ideas have no existence to me. Your actions do. Because I understand that things which only have a subjective existence also can have value (real objective value (yes, there is such a thing as objective value)), I can use ideas to objectively act those actions can change subjective ideas, which can lead to further objective action. quote: As any solution I can conceive outside a government solution would invariably lead to a lowering of safety, standard of living, and educational opportunities. I'm more than willing of learning of a real world solution. Though it doesn't sound like you have it. I could be wrong, I'm skeptical. Here is one place I think you are confused about what I think. I do not want to get rid of “government”. I don’t need to. It is already gone…or, rather, it was never really there to begin with. I don’t like people telling me what to do at the point of a gun. I don’t like it when other people think people should tell me what to do at the point of a gun. quote: Yes, I think the existance of a government is better than no governement. I Without government you have no transit system, you have no way of establishing trade standards, you have no way of developing a centrally controlled defense policy. Yet, all of these things exist…well all except government. There is a quote from something that says “If god didn’t exist, we would have invented him.” What you think of as “government” is the god we created. People did all of those things…people would have created them no matter what mass hallucination of organization they all shared. They would have looked back and said, “See what we have? None of this would have been possible without ‘government’ (or ‘the gods’ or ‘the aliens’ or whatever)”, much like you just have. People will collect and organize and do what is in their own best interests, such as building transit systems and establishing trade standards. They do it in places where economies have collapsed. They do it in places where the official governments have become too oppressive or stopped working (black markets). They do it without encouragement and without supervision. The rest of your post falls into the same trap. You assume that these good things you attribute to government would suddenly vanish if people realized that government doesn’t exist. They wouldn’t. People would still influence others with their mores and values. They would still form collectives and use the power of the gun to get what they wanted. It would just be a lot more honest. No pretending to do what they think is right in the name of “the people”. It isn’t “the people” they are representing, it is themselves. What I am really trying to point out is the hypocrisy of the position that it is ok for other people to control some aspects of other people’s lives, but not others. You are fully willing to break a law you don’t agree with, yet you think others should obey laws that they don’t agree with. Taggard

Happilymarried -> RE: Three men charged in 'dungeon' castration (4/4/2006 12:58:04 PM)
This may be a bad first post, but can you imagine what the vanilla world thinks about all of this if it is provoking such discussions in this community?

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