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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/18/2010 8:31:12 PM

lovingpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Bingo....

My girl doesn't get to the 'rebelion' stage either because if she is having a problem..... she brings it to Me before it ever gets to that point. We communicate, the issue is gone into understand and dealt with... either Me helping her push through it, get around it, or if I don't think it is important, simply removed from the equation entirely.

This is the case for me as well. I don't rebel. I may struggle, but either he comes to me and asks me about it or I come to him because I can't get it sorted on my own. He is very attentive to this sort of thing to keep it from ever getting to the point that I feel I need to rebel in the first place. It was some of you lovely domly ones that helped me realize that it really is okay to just bring an issue to my partner whether I am clear on the issue or not and it isn't some burden upon him to help me. He likes to help me work through things. It is a lesson well learned and I have been careful to remember it when I am having trouble. I appreciate it very much.

lovingpet

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Post #: 41

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 2:45:38 AM

ranja

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

GR

If I'm seeing my dom as reasonable, level-headed, forthright, and caring, rebellion never comes into the picture, even if there's an issue that I'm not happy about.

When I'm feeling or acting rebellious in a relationship I've learned that that's my body telling me to get the fuck out because something ain't right. So, in my case, there'd never even be an opportunity to "punish", because if it's reached the point of rebellion, I've already checked out.

Yes this thought came to me aswell, indeed the ultimate rebellion is leaving the relationship all together, probably thinking things like "fuck you then"
and so punishment would be impossible really ... besides maybe making the divorce more difficult or throw in some stalking behaviour... everything would be broken beyond repair though

So isn't it so that it is a persons duty to rebel when things go wrong before it is all so messed up that the only thing left to do is leave?
Why would you leave a relationship when you feel like rebelling... why would you not rebel against the things that are wrong and try to make them right again?

I find the entire notion that subs do not rebel strange to accept... surely everybody has a bit of fire in them?
everybody gets angry and pissed off at times no?... no Dom is so good he manages to keep his sub happy all the time, isn't it? Don't we all have faults?

Obviously some people are way more in control of their emotions than others, my Husband and i are really not very hot headed people and with age we have mellowed even more, still some rebellion on occasion is needed in my relationship... it keeps things healthy... my Husband is unfortunately NOT right all the time.... and when He is unfortunately not right, He is unfortunately sometimes too stubborn to accept it... which leaves me no other option than to rebel.

Still serious punishment after my rebel behaviour would not work at all
unless he uses the incident after we have settled the problem as adults as a fun excuse to spank me... oh yes...

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Post #: 42

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 6:07:41 AM

wisdomtogive

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Thank you CreativeDominant for your reply. It made a lot of sense to me. Yes, Sir is handling me very well. Though my rebellion is not per sey what many would call but more of a struggle, he has been able to help me step over the fears and find balance. Punishment he is against, especially since we are adults and heck senior citizens .ugg:). Discipline and structure though he is on top of, and wont give an inch, which i appreciate.

Thanks again,
wisdomtogive

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Post #: 43

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 6:11:32 AM

wisdomtogive

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Thanks lovingpet for responding to my question. By the way it is great to see you, it's been awhile:)

I do understand where you are coming from and appreciate your candidness.

blessings,
wisdomtogive

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Post #: 44

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 6:20:51 AM

wisdomtogive

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quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

GR

If I'm seeing my dom as reasonable, level-headed, forthright, and caring, rebellion never comes into the picture, even if there's an issue that I'm not happy about.

When I'm feeling or acting rebellious in a relationship I've learned that that's my body telling me to get the fuck out because something ain't right. So, in my case, there'd never even be an opportunity to "punish", because if it's reached the point of rebellion, I've already checked out.

Thank you Marie, and the part that I underline I also agree with. In reading the article though it brought to attention that sometimes s-types will rebell not because of their Dom's but because something outside the relationship is troubling them. This could be a work situation, ums, family etc. When I read that it made me ponder if the s-type is just having a bad day, and isn't as attentive to their Dom.
Thank you again for your response.
wisdom

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Post #: 45

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 6:29:47 AM

wisdomtogive

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

GR

If I'm seeing my dom as reasonable, level-headed, forthright, and caring, rebellion never comes into the picture, even if there's an issue that I'm not happy about.

When I'm feeling or acting rebellious in a relationship I've learned that that's my body telling me to get the fuck out because something ain't right. So, in my case, there'd never even be an opportunity to "punish", because if it's reached the point of rebellion, I've already checked out.

Yes this thought came to me aswell, indeed the ultimate rebellion is leaving the relationship all together, probably thinking things like "fuck you then"
and so punishment would be impossible really ... besides maybe making the divorce more difficult or throw in some stalking behaviour... everything would be broken beyond repair though

So isn't it so that it is a persons duty to rebel when things go wrong before it is all so messed up that the only thing left to do is leave? Or perhaps they can communicate to their Dom about their struggles, if not in a rebellious way? For me it is not an out right action, but more of not looking at their eyes etc. because I am trying to hide my feelings and frustrations. This is just an example.

I find the entire notion that subs do not rebel strange to accept... surely everybody has a bit of fire in them?
everybody gets angry and pissed off at times no?... no Dom is so good he manages to keep his sub happy all the time, isn't it? Don't we all have faults? Is it rebelling through or frustration? How one reacts to their frustration I would feel is a key too. It would never occur to me to verbally tell Sir to f off. That would be crossing a hard limit for him. I respect him enough to not do so, or try that limit. I though have a very expressionable face, which sometimes is too easy to read, and he reads it well.

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Post #: 46

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 6:50:25 AM

ranja

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I know what you are saying... to let yourself be carried away with frustration so you end up wanting to say "fuck you" is not a good thing...
or is it?... sometimes it is an enormous release to say "oh just fuck off you twat"
especially if the man has been stupid about something and refuses to see sense and you have tried to reason to no avail.

It is good to strife for a well balanced relationship in which there is much respect and partners can calmly and adultly resolve problems, but i think it is not realistic to believe you can always be this serene

also, it feels good to let rip sometimes and blow off some steam
somethings might be best resolved by being passionate about them

Though i think it is wrong to be constantly in battle
and after the 'issue' obviously i want to be in my proper place again

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Post #: 47

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 7:14:15 AM

marie2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

GR

If I'm seeing my dom as reasonable, level-headed, forthright, and caring, rebellion never comes into the picture, even if there's an issue that I'm not happy about.

When I'm feeling or acting rebellious in a relationship I've learned that that's my body telling me to get the fuck out because something ain't right. So, in my case, there'd never even be an opportunity to "punish", because if it's reached the point of rebellion, I've already checked out.

Thank you Marie, and the part that I underline I also agree with. In reading the article though it brought to attention that sometimes s-types will rebell not because of their Dom's but because something outside the relationship is troubling them. This could be a work situation, ums, family etc. When I read that it made me ponder if the s-type is just having a bad day, and isn't as attentive to their Dom.
Thank you again for your response.
wisdom

Well, I certainly have bad days, so I'm not incapable of being pissy or snippy, or frustrated, or in a bad mood, but I don't consider that rebellion.

Do I think there should be punishment for moodiness or an attitude caused by outside influences? I don't think so, unless it is frequent or consistant and there's no end to it. For me, open communication is more likely the prefered route to fix the problem. But on the other hand, maybe some submissives would welcome and respond well to a punishment for that kind of behavior as a way of putting it behind them and clearing the air. I don't mean to imply that there's any right or wrong way. Speaking for myself, I'd respond better to communication and support from my partner, rather than a punishment.

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Post #: 48

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 7:39:56 AM

wisdomtogive

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Thank you ranja for your honest answers. It is good that truly there is a dom for each of us, and how we cope with life. Though i am not mouthy, i do tend to walk away, which for Sir is a no no. A behavior he has corrected. We all have our ways:)

Thanks again:)

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Post #: 49

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 7:44:56 AM

wisdomtogive

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<quote>I'd respond better to communication and support from my partner, rather than a punishment.
</quote>
Same here marie. I might have a mood in a given day, but a serious couple words can jolt me out of it, without being punished. Stop it!! works better then a punishment for me. If it is something I have been struggling with then Him making sure I am talking to him through whatever method works best, is good, and i do work hard at following any orders given to help me through this.

Thanks again for replying:)

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Post #: 50

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 8:03:44 AM

Andalusite

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Hmm, I have so far mostly had a similar response to lovingpet and RavenMuse's girl - not rebellion, but inner struggle which I share with him, and we brainstorm to figure out exactly what I need in order to resolve it. Sometimes just talking helps, sometimes I can request a very minor change in what he wants of me, sometimes, I still struggle, but knowing that he will be encouraging if I don't perform perfectly that time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive
sometimes s-types will rebell not because of their Dom's but because something outside the relationship is troubling them. This could be a work situation, ums, family etc. When I read that it made me ponder if the s-type is just having a bad day, and isn't as attentive to their Dom

This was what I was thinking even before I read it. You've gone through a lot of changes, and it sounds like the rebellion is mostly a reaction to that. So, bring that up to your Master, and think up ways to stay in touch with your friends from your previous home, make new ones where you are, perhaps be allowed to do a little redecorating (that fits his tastes as well) to help it feel like home, etc.

You mentioned walking away - some people response to stress by "caving" they want to just be left alone for a bit until they're fit to be around other people. Is that what you mean, or do you threaten to walk away from the relationship? I rarely get angry, but when I do, running or going into a cleaning frenzy helps me get it to a manageable point, before I talk with other people. I'm a bit introverted, and also, sometimes I know something is bothering me, but I'm too upset to be coherent, even in my own mind, about why. If you need a little time to put things together in your head first, you should discuss that with your Master when you are not upset or angry. He may be willing to give you a little more space then, to let some of the anger melt out, and the words come, and be able to talk about the problem respectfully.

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Post #: 51

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 11:09:07 AM

wisdomtogive

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Hello Andalusite and thank you for responding.
I would like to take a moment to clarify 2 things, I decided to post my op because of an article that I read, not because I was outwardly rebelling against Sir. I have though felt a rebelling going on inside me, where I am dueling it out with the wisdom whose been alone for almost 5 years, and the wisdom who wanted to become owned by Sir. Sir already figured that this might be something that would go on within me. We been very close friends for over 2 years, and he does know my moods well. It is so out of my character to be offensive to him on purpose, or anyone for that matter.

With that said, he and i communicate a lot, and in a variety of ways. There are times writing is easier, to help me clear my mind and 'see' the cause, so I will do that. Other times though he insists on talking, because I have trouble expressing myself verbally to another. It is these times I want to walk away into another room, because I do not like anyone to see me have a melt down. He is helping me with this struggle though, and when he feels it is justified he will let me have my own space.

My struggle has eased a lot with his help. If he would have punished me, for instance in walking away, it would not have gone as well as it is. His voice is what brings me back to His reality and what we are dealing with. A few words spoken direct will automatically snap me out of my fog. In the end, it never was about rebelling against Sir, but if I really had it in me to serve. I know the answer now, and it is yes:) The dueling swords(sides of wisdom) have stopped.

I hope I explained this well, if not please feel free to ask me to clarify.
wisdom

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Post #: 52

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 2:12:09 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

Doms. do you punish for rebellion [general or specific type]? If so why? If you do not punish for this why?

I don't use punishment as part of my dynamic... my experience leads me to conclude their are alot more effective ways to get what I want.

Secondly.... Alandra or Kyra have never went into a rebellion! They are smart girls... they don't go into a battle when they know it will cost them the war!

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Post #: 53

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 2:37:13 PM

wisdomtogive

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

Doms. do you punish for rebellion [general or specific type]? If so why? If you do not punish for this why?

I don't use punishment as part of my dynamic... my experience leads me to conclude their are alot more effective ways to get what I want.

Secondly.... Alandra or Kyra have never went into a rebellion! They are smart girls... they don't go into a battle when they know it will cost them the war!

I like that and am happy that i am also a smart girl when it came to Sir. Yes, i had my battle within, and i won and embraced the submissive in me:)

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/19/2010 4:34:22 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

I like that and am happy that i am also a smart girl when it came to Sir. Yes, i had my battle within, and i won and embraced the submissive in me:)

I am so glad to see someone use this term (the one I bolded).... so often I see people use 'surrender'.... and well... to me it has so such a negative connotation and I much prefer the positive than the negative. Secondly... surrendering what you don't want doesn't seem to me to be of any significant advantage to anyone except to the person getting what you are giving up. I like to think a relationship should be more a win win....

the slave embraces the obedience while the Master embraces the Authority..... The two together make music in my world!

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 3/19/2010 5:11:37 PM >

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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Post #: 55

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/20/2010 6:43:44 AM

wisdomtogive

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KnightofMists
Thank you for your kind words, Sir.
wisdom

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/20/2010 7:43:12 AM

LeatherBentOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

Upon reading an article on rebellion by Raven Shadowborne on the internet, I started to ponder the concept of punishment in this catagory. I do have to agree with her point of view that many submissives/slaves do not rebell without an underlining cause. She suggested to find that cause and communicate about it, verses the proverbial punishment.

Sir seems to follow her theory as well. Though I am basically not a brat, there has been a rebellion going on within me, since I moved here almost 2 months ago. He already knew there would be a period for Us to adjust to each other, plus my own adjusting to living as a M/s couple 24/7. He also realized that almost 5 years without me having a committed relationship, let a-lone, live-in one, would intensify my personal struggle in being owned. Throughout all this, he has never felt the need to punish me when I show signs of rebellion. He knows that I am going through my own personal duel inside.
This is working for us, and has aided me in trusting him more and more as the days go by. Through this, the dueling 'wisdoms' have settled down a lot. One factor always prevails in my mind through his direction, He is in charge. He owns me. His methods have earned my respect for Him as my Dom and owner.

Though it has proven to be a better direction for us' communication verses punishment, I know it might not be for others. I do wonder how others view punishment for rebellion. I am basically referring to the referrence I made about Raven Shadowborne's view that a lot of rebellion can actually stem from problems the submissive is having via the outside world, or her/his own inner turmoil.

Doms. do you punish for rebellion [general or specific type]? If so why? If you do not punish for this why?

Submissives/slaves if you ever had a period of rebellion how did your Dom deal with it? Was the way they had chosen productive in your own personal healing? If so why and if not why?

Thank you everyone ahead of time for posting your thoughts.
wisdomtogive

I see rebellion as a need for discipline and a chance to reiterate my expectations. If the behavior exists after two reminders I take that for disobedience (and the sub knows this beforehand). I never use corporal punishment on a masochist, but what they hate the most. Just the Sadist in me.

LBO

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/20/2010 9:19:26 AM

MstrDark1

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What is punishment....and how should it be administered. Ahhhhhh................ok.For rebellion......give her the benefit of the doubt....if it's valid....then it's something wrong the Dom did...then he has to work through it with her if he cares enough.Or set her free..If she rebells often..and it's her....then it would seem to be topping from the bottom. Which some Dom's will treat as physical punishment. Not realizing the real meaning of manipulation by the sub in the Dom's domain. That is a NO NO and it will not be tollerated by me. At that point she is no longer part of my life!!

MstrDark1 owner of Wisdomtogive

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Post #: 58

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/20/2010 10:10:03 AM

HisSweetElysium

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fast reply--
For quite a while Master undertook this same practice with me and my moments of brattiness. Often, it led to me being even MORE bratty, refusing to communicate, listen, etc to the point where I was being such a jerk I no longer even remembered what my own damned problem was, but knew I was in an extremely negative place, well over the line, and feeling rather foolish, and unable to do the right thing. In the long run, that made it worse. In one of my most recent moments of brattiness, He summarily told me to roll over and I refused, and he flipped me over and spanked the hell out of me. This actually worked better; it softened me completely, and before it even really hurt I was crying and feeling very bad for my behavior, which had not escalated in the way that earnest conversation does. I avoided going too far with the brattiness, and had less to feel guilty over when it was all said and done.

Of course we do have conversations (lots) about insecurities, problems, etc but in the moment, this seems to nip it in the bud in a way discussion does not.

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Post #: 59

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/20/2010 1:41:25 PM

Andalusite

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrDark1
If she rebells often..and it's her....then it would seem to be topping from the bottom. Which some Dom's will treat as physical punishment. Not realizing the real meaning of manipulation by the sub in the Dom's domain. That is a NO NO and it will not be tollerated by me. At that point she is no longer part of my life!!

I'm a switch, and can be a bit independent and opinionated at times. I have never deliberately been manipulative or rebellious, and I don't nag or whine if I'm told no. When my Master and I first started dating, one of the things that drew me to him and made me more confident in becoming his slave was that he was secure enough in his dominance not to worry that I might "top from the bottom," especially in nebulous, unintentional ways. He wants me to express my desires, my needs, and my emotions, to be an open book to him, but he reserves the right to refuse anything he doesn't feel like doing, or put it off until later.

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Post #: 60

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