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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/20/2010 5:38:10 PM

Falkenstein

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Well, wisdomtogive, firstly I thank you for initiating such a good thread.

Rebellious acts by a sub are definitely a sign she gives her master, who has then do to some deciphering. It is the normal way of women to communicate to the men in their life through coded signals, if possible either incomprehensible, or with reference to things no male can ever remember "you know what you said to me three years ago, in the car when we drove back at the party with the Jones. Now I feel exactly like that and I cannot understand why you do not do something about it".

The difference between the average male and a dominant one, in this situation, is that he cannot just go to the fridge, grab a beer and let it go over him while making acknowledging noises at what he hopes are the right moments. Submissive women are much more demanding than vanilla ones, they are also more rewarding, but that is another subject ;-{)

My main concern when challenged by my sub is to maintain decorum and gain time to think.

She can be rebelling to get some attention -> funishment is on the order, as well as a mental note to keep her better on my radar.
She had a bad day at the office/hospital -> warm bath, with a cocktail on the side, and/or foot massage, and a listening ear are the answer. I am not an MD, but I am starting to distrust classical anatomy: If thinking processes are happening in the brain, why can I better the mood of my sub with foot massage?
She is unhappy with our relation -> red alert! Let us discuss it, which usually means listening to things I will probably not like to hear. Usually, she is just unhappy with a specific item and correction is easy, the key is give nothing time to sour. The early weak signals are the only useful ones, because the strong ones mean that the relation has already tanked.

Of course there is the not benign matter of venting my ire at being disobeyed. But for that there is internet and its fora. There is always a poor dude on collarme or somewhere else who then wonder why I am shredding his or her post while making disparaging remarks about his mother and her dalliance with various animals

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Post #: 61

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/20/2010 8:26:49 PM

wisdomtogive

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Leatherbentoe
Thank you for responding in how you see rebellion and how you handle it.

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/20/2010 8:34:30 PM

wisdomtogive

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Thank you HisSweetElysium for responding and giving me your feelings on this.

To be honest, speaking for myself only naturally, we never had to go beyond communication. It does work for me. I though never felt the need to test Sir. Am not saying you do, please know that. My rebellious nature is within me not towards him. Brattiness is not something that i could even respect within myself. If i carried on in a bratty way, i would beat myself up more then Sir ever could. I tend to hammer myself big time, if i do something to hurt him, or question his authority.

Thank you again for answering.
wisdom

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/20/2010 8:40:32 PM

wisdomtogive

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Thank you Master for taking the time to read my thread and responding to it. It was very much appreciated by me and i am honored, Sir.

Your slave,
wisdomtogive

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/20/2010 8:43:35 PM

wisdomtogive

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Thank you Falkenstein for your lovely compliment regarding my thread. I would also like to take a moment to thank you for explaining your concepts of rebellion and punishment.

wisdomtogive

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Post #: 65

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/21/2010 4:45:08 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

Upon reading an article on rebellion by Raven Shadowborne on the internet, I started to ponder the concept of punishment in this catagory. I do have to agree with her point of view that many submissives/slaves do not rebell without an underlining cause. She suggested to find that cause and communicate about it, verses the proverbial punishment.

There is always an underlying cause - for any action.

I think people exhibit varying degrees of patience.

Personally - I talk about - but not until I'm blue in the face - at some point enough will be enough.

After all - you have a duty to yourself to be honest and open about whatever is bothering you and be respsonsible enough to accept that whatever 'advice' you're given you take it on board rather than revert to 'rebellion'.

Life's too short to play games - either you live by the rules which you presumably accepted before moving in - or you take a look in the mirror and understand exactly what you want. There's no middle ground - you're in or you're out - and excusing your behaviour with 'underlying cause' simply isn't good enough. Yes - there will be an underlying cause - but the answer is to get a grip on it as opposed to 'rebellion'.

Just plain old responsibility and respect for your partner (and his home).

Edited to add: of course you have a right of rebellion but it needs a final solution otherwise you're in a constant state of war - not conducive to a lasting relationship.

And to answer the question: depends on the situation and your man's personality i.e. where he draws the line. He'd have to make a judgement on whether or not your 'rebellion' is reasonable.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 3/21/2010 4:49:55 AM >

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/21/2010 4:50:43 AM

Justme696

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quote:

Doms. do you punish for rebellion [general or specific type]? If so why? If you do not punish for this why?

some issues demand punishment...some issues are better discussed.
It is hard...to find a good balance between it.
In the past I had slaves that wanted more punishment..and others wanted to talk more.
It takes time to find this balance. Just be open towards eachother.

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/21/2010 5:20:43 AM

wisdomtogive

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

.

There is always an underlying cause - for any action.

I think people exhibit varying degrees of patience.

Personally - I talk about - but not until I'm blue in the face - at some point enough will be enough.
I totally agree with this statement in any type of relationship, not just D/s or M/s.

After all - you have a duty to yourself to be honest and open about whatever is bothering you and be respsonsible enough to accept that whatever 'advice' you're given you take it on board rather than revert to 'rebellion'. I totally agree with this as well.

Life's too short to play games - either you live by the rules which you presumably accepted before moving in - or you take a look in the mirror and understand exactly what you want. There's no middle ground - you're in or you're out - and excusing your behaviour with 'underlying cause' simply isn't good enough. Yes - there will be an underlying cause - but the answer is to get a grip on it as opposed to 'rebellion'. Understandable, but what if the problem is an inner one verses one's Dom? Sometimes underlying problems to affect one's life, even for those who have a good control of their emotions and actions.

Just plain old responsibility and respect for your partner (and his home).

Edited to add: of course you have a right of rebellion but it needs a final solution otherwise you're in a constant state of war - not conducive to a lasting relationship. Totally agree with that.

And to answer the question: depends on the situation and your man's personality i.e. where he draws the line. He'd have to make a judgement on whether or not your 'rebellion' is reasonable.

Thank you NorthernGent for responding to my question. I did find the article very interesting and am glad many are lending their point of view. One thing I have realized through readings peoples' responses is the different views of what rebellion is. Many seem to link it to bratty behavior verses frustration and inner struggle. I am more of the latter then the first.

Blessings
wisdom

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Post #: 68

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/21/2010 5:25:02 AM

wisdomtogive

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Thank you Justme for your response. I am not one who believes in punishment for rebelling, but for brattiness yes. So it has occurred to me through reading this thread that I do not think of rebellion as a bratty means. Bratty means to me is just a brat who is topping from the bottom. It is interesting to see how words are define in different mind sets.

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Post #: 69

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/21/2010 5:47:57 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

Thank you NorthernGent for responding to my question.

Not a problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

One thing I have realized through readings peoples' responses is the different views of what rebellion is. Many seem to link it to bratty behavior verses frustration and inner struggle. I am more of the latter then the first.

Yes - of course there will be varying suggestions on what is deemed to be acceptable.

For me rebellion is any challenge to the way things are going - whether it's bratty behaviour or otherwise. You consider the challenge and whether or not it's warranted - only the individual can decide what constitutes 'warranted' for them.

Where I feel the challenge isn't warranted - I'm more inclined to tell her to go away and think about it - then we'll talk. The pen really is mightier than the sword - when the pen doesn't work I'm inclined to think that we're not right for one another and no amount of punishment will resolve that. It's all in the mind you see: where you can't persuade her through reason then you'll struggle to persuade her through coercion.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Post #: 70

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/21/2010 12:31:00 PM

HisSweetElysium

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wisdomtogive

Thank you HisSweetElysium for responding and giving me your feelings on this.

To be honest, speaking for myself only naturally, we never had to go beyond communication. It does work for me. I though never felt the need to test Sir. Am not saying you do, please know that. My rebellious nature is within me not towards him. Brattiness is not something that i could even respect within myself. If i carried on in a bratty way, i would beat myself up more then Sir ever could. I tend to hammer myself big time, if i do something to hurt him, or question his authority.

Thank you again for answering.
wisdom

I do too, that's the problem. I get in an extremely negative emotional cycle and feel black and horrible about myself, my relationships, my life, and I lash out at everything. I've always been this way, and I feel extremely remorseful afterward. It actually helps to break me out of this mental cycle in a way that talking does not, and does a great deal of damage control in the sense that it doesn't escalate to MORE things I feel guilty and bad about after I get out of my funk.

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Post #: 71

RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/21/2010 12:44:24 PM

wisdomtogive

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Thank you HisSweetElysium for explaining about your moods. I too suffer from that at times, and prior to moving in with Sir wrote a lot about it, and how my body physically feels with it. He is aware when I am going into one of those moods, because I will tell him. Heck it is worst then dble pms:), if i can remember back then. Depending on the cycle of this, a scene, not punishment can help me release, but if i am too far into it, the best thing is put me where there is no noise and absolutely dark and let me listen to meditation breathing exercises. Just to be touch if I am in that end of the cycle can cause me a lot of pain. Thank goodness this does not occur very often, but was one reason i seriously thought about living alone for every. Late hubby knew how to deal with it, but hard to have another deal with. Sir knows about this and he handled it wisely.

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/21/2010 12:57:10 PM

BKSir

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Gads I hate when I'm late to the party. Punishment for rebellion... Hm...

Like many others, I think it depends on the type of 'rebellion' and how one means 'punishment'. My p... last pet, rebelled at times, blatantly not listening to me because it was 'cute' to do so. Little things like sticking his tongue out and being a little bit of a brat in the store once in a while. Playful rebellion for playful retribution. Which, I think, at least in limited quantity, is all well and good and possibly even fun and healthy.

However, true rebellion, seriously refusing to do something that was the norm in the house for him, such as day to day duties and such, out of nowhere, or behaving in a way that was unlike him to behave due to household rules (such as, if you're out with friends, and going to be late, just give me a call, and then blatantly not doing so), that can be very troubling. These situations, I agree again with others, do not normally require punishment, but more a long, serious talk to find out what the hell is going on and working through the core issues.

And then, there's the "mid-grade rebellion". More than cute civil-disobedience rebellion, but less than the "complete 180" rebellion. I like to call this kind "limit testing" or "button pushing". Things that you can tell are obviously for getting attention. This kind, I do tend to punish. Normally in relation with what was done. You ate the last slice of cake without asking anyone if they wanted it first, or being told "It's yours, go ahead.", fine. No cake for you at all next time. You repeatedly ignored my request that you do something small and simple, and instead sat at your computer? Fine, I have your power cord for the day. If the exact same behavior becomes a habit though, it falls into the 'true rebellion' category, and needs to be looked at more deeply.

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/21/2010 1:01:22 PM

wisdomtogive

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oh my computer froze so couldnt edit my last post. Communicating prior to living with him, gave him the knowledge that occassionally something in me is triggered and every nerve in my body is raw. This move, changes etc trigger this event, and he knew how to handle it in a way that i felt safe, and was able to move past it.

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/22/2010 12:47:03 AM

slo18

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hmmm in my admitingly limited experince , a mix of both works well for me. normaly my "rebellion" is short lived. i relise what i said or did immedatly and immedatly regret it. when i say that a mix of both works what i mean is that it works well for me when the Dom in the relationship and i talk and figure out why the behavior is happening. and then if the rebellion was companied by disrespect 9 in my case it often is because i am a mouthy kind of person) then i deserve to be punished for the disrespect not the rebellion itself, and if i am not punished for it my behavior will often g et worse till i am. both are nessesary for me to feel that the matter has been closed because with out the punishment i will feel guilty and beat myself up over it for days to come.

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RE: Does rebellion warrant punishment? - 3/22/2010 8:08:49 AM

Andalusite

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I sometimes fight with *myself* internally to do something he wants, which sounds like what you're talking about, but I wouldn't consider it to be a rebellion unless I were reacting against my Master.

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Post #: 76

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