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RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 8:24:00 AM   
SultryItalian


Posts: 125
Joined: 7/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Then you apparently didnt understand that the statistic you so loudly supported is totally wrong.


I didn't agree with the statistics, but with eyesopened's opinion on abortion.
Does this make you feel better?:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SultryItalian

This!

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Terminating an unwanted pregnancy and choosing to not bring an other unwanted human being into the world is exercising appropriate and responsible action and taking one's responsibilities seriously. It seems to me that staying passively and unhappily pregnant is irresponsible.


And this!

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I am pro-choice. Not for the reasons a woman should be able to say what happens to her body, but mainly because I love children.  I love children so much that I hate seeing what happens to those poor unwanted babies.  I hate seeing children negelcted.  Their brains cooked to soup because the parent 'forgot' they were in a hot car while they were nodding out from herion.  That a mother sells her 5 year old for sex to get her next fix.  A father throws his 8-month-old against the wall to get it to stop crying.  I hate hate hate what happens to these babies!  A much more humane thing to suck out a mass of cells than to torture babies after they are born.

Most, probably all, "pro-life" groups could give 2 farts in the wind what happens after the cord is cut.  They shuffle that problem off to law enforcement and a overly worked child welfare system.  Foster care is inadequate at best, or abusive at worst.  Celebrities adopt kids from Africa or China and don't spend one moment thinking about the forgotten children in the US. 

Just on this board we were discussing a 12 year old who killed his step-mom-to-be.  He didn't want to kill her before the birth of the baby was apparent to him. 

Until we have an effective way to deal with these social sicknesses, I believe abortion needs to remain a legal and safe option.


Thank you ladies!




(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 341
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 8:30:51 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

Okay.  Then murder isn't an issue.  Thanks.  I'm gonna forget about it then.  Everything is sunny and bright.  Thank you again for enlightening me.


Are you seriously going to get snarky because your incorrect statistic was challenged?


Of course. I guess your 1604 posts werent on this board. Snark is de rigeur.


LOL!

You're right actually, I just saw the topic flash on screen and figured I'd enter the cesspool.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 342
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 8:35:10 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

I understand your stance here. I only stated I hate legislation for or against.

It's your personal choice, hence liberty should be yours, not the state or feds.



Actually, it's between a patient and her doctor. It's not a lifestyle choice, no matter what some would have us believe. It's a medical decision, and not a pretty one, not an easy one, not a happy one, but a necessary one for whomever makes it. As such, I fail to see why it shouldn't be covered by the healthcare bill. The only reason it will be dropped from it is because of moralizers who feel it's okay to have vasectomies on the national dime, but not abortions. The double standard is really quite baffling.

If men got pregnant, it would be a completely different kettle of fish. I don't know whether this is tragic or hilarious .

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 343
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 8:36:50 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SultryItalian

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Then you apparently didnt understand that the statistic you so loudly supported is totally wrong.


I didn't agree with the statistics, but with eyesopened's opinion on abortion.
Does this make you feel better?:

quote:

ORIGINAL: SultryItalian

This!

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Terminating an unwanted pregnancy and choosing to not bring an other unwanted human being into the world is exercising appropriate and responsible action and taking one's responsibilities seriously. It seems to me that staying passively and unhappily pregnant is irresponsible.


And this!

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

I am pro-choice. Not for the reasons a woman should be able to say what happens to her body, but mainly because I love children.  I love children so much that I hate seeing what happens to those poor unwanted babies.  I hate seeing children negelcted.  Their brains cooked to soup because the parent 'forgot' they were in a hot car while they were nodding out from herion.  That a mother sells her 5 year old for sex to get her next fix.  A father throws his 8-month-old against the wall to get it to stop crying.  I hate hate hate what happens to these babies!  A much more humane thing to suck out a mass of cells than to torture babies after they are born.

Most, probably all, "pro-life" groups could give 2 farts in the wind what happens after the cord is cut.  They shuffle that problem off to law enforcement and a overly worked child welfare system.  Foster care is inadequate at best, or abusive at worst.  Celebrities adopt kids from Africa or China and don't spend one moment thinking about the forgotten children in the US. 

Just on this board we were discussing a 12 year old who killed his step-mom-to-be.  He didn't want to kill her before the birth of the baby was apparent to him. 

Until we have an effective way to deal with these social sicknesses, I believe abortion needs to remain a legal and safe option.


Thank you ladies!






I see. Hint: Usually bolding a section of a quote and then saying something like "Thank you" indicates agreement with the bolded part. My bad for reading something into your post that you didnt intend.

(in reply to SultryItalian)
Profile   Post #: 344
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 8:39:05 AM   
SultryItalian


Posts: 125
Joined: 7/9/2008
Status: offline
Please refer to eyesopened's original post. She bolded that line, not I. ;)

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 345
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 8:42:43 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SultryItalian

Please refer to eyesopened's original post. She bolded that line, not I. ;)


And I apologized!

(btw I have an awesome tomato sauce recipe if you want to wow your SO. :) )

(in reply to SultryItalian)
Profile   Post #: 346
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 8:46:00 AM   
SultryItalian


Posts: 125
Joined: 7/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: SultryItalian

Please refer to eyesopened's original post. She bolded that line, not I. ;)


And I apologized!

(btw I have an awesome tomato sauce recipe if you want to wow your SO. :) )


:D Apology accepted!
I don't have an SO, but new recipes are always welcomed! Please send in CMmail.



(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 347
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 8:48:16 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

Murder is the leading cause of death among pregnant women.  This is a medical fact. 


Oh God not this tired old statistic again.

First of all, no it's not. The leading cause of death among pregnant women is complications due to pregnancy. Murder comes in third, behind pregnancy complications and automobile accidents.

And second of all, you really have to look at it in context - the leading cause of death in women between the ages of 14-45ish, within a 9 month span of their lives, when they're making sure to be extra concerned about their health, and when they're otherwise healthy enough to conceive...it would be either murder, auto accidents, or suicide, which coincidentally comes in fourth.

Though you really have to love that this article is titled "Homicide One of Leading Causes of Injury Related Death Among Pregnant Women" even though it comes in third.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/20316.php



“Homicide is a leading cause of pregnancy-associated injury deaths,” Jeani Chang and colleagues wrote in the latest issue of the American Journal of Public Health. They investigated the deaths of women who died while pregnant or within a year of being pregnant between 1991 and 1999 and found 1,993 that were caused by injury, compared with 4,200 that were directly related to pregnancy complications. Of the injury-related deaths, 617 or 31 percent were ruled homicide, making murder the second most common cause of injury-related death for pregnant women after car accidents. The homicide rate for pregnant black women was more than triple that for white women, the researchers said.

Most of the murdered women, 56 percent, were shot to death while the rest were either stabbed or strangled. On Tuesday, a Texas man was charged with murdering his pregnant lover and her 7-year-old son after he led police to a makeshift grave. Stephen Barbee, 37, told police he murdered Lisa Underwood, 34, and her son Jayden because she was pregnant with his child and wanted him to leave his wife for her, according to court documents quoted by the Dallas Morning News.

A second report suggests that pregnancy-related deaths may be underreported. Isabelle Horon of the Maryland Department of Health and Mental Hygiene collected data on maternal deaths from death certificates and other records.


http://www.jrrobertssecurity.com/security-news/security-crime-news0043.htm

They are indeed underreported. The CDC has a new reporting system since the old one was extremely limited and did not give adequate attention to the numerous causes of pregnancy related deaths.

Homicide still a leading cause of death among pregnant and postpartum women Homicide is a leading injury-related cause of death among pregnant and postpartum women, second only to motor-vehicle accidents, according to a review of death certificates for U.S. women.
The study found that for every 100,000 live births in the United States from 1991-1999, at least two women were homicide victims during pregnancy or within one year of being pregnant. Being black, under age 20 and receiving late or no prenatal care increased a woman’s chance of being a homicide victim while pregnant. And for 57 percent of pregnant homicide victims, the gun was their assailant’s weapon of choice, followed by 17 percent of assailants who cut or stab victims.
Using a new CDC surveillance system called the National Violent Death Reporting System (NVDRS), timely data can be better captured about the scope and nature of pregnancy-related deaths. NVDRS can capture information about pregnancy status, victim-perpetrator relationship and the presence of an intimate partner. This information makes it an important information tool to better understand the scope and nature of pregnancy-associated violent deaths. [From: “Homicide: a Leading Cause of Injury and Deaths Among Pregnant and Postpartum Women in the United States, 1991-1999.” Contact: Office of Communication, National Center for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Atlanta, 770-488-5131.]


http://www.apha.org/about/news/ajphreleases/2005/March+2005+AJPH+Press+Release.htm

Oddly enough.. and it comes as no surprise to me.. not every state has adopted this new reporting process. So to state emphatically that ANY cause is the leading cause is a tad bit misleading... simply because we dont know based upon the limited information we have.



_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 348
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 8:56:05 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

You are absolutely right about this, though I would guess to say that she is exception and not the rule.
Yes, I would hope so at least.

As for your friend, I'm not a medical expert, but from the literature I have read, there is no data that proves that abortions themselves cause infertility. However the infection that can occur post abortion can cause infertility. And the risk of having one of these infections increase when the job is done in a clinic that isn't up to standards.

She isn't afraid of being infertile, she is afraid that having 2 back to back abortions has screwed something up to the point she won't be able to carry one to full term. Since the miscarriage came so soon after the 2 abortions, she thought they might be related. Of course, she had been planning to abort that one too, so maybe her body just knew that and got rid of it for her.



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Profile   Post #: 349
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 8:59:16 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
To me, Doctors are advisors, just like Attorneys or any other trained professional. The choice in the end should be the individuals, unless mentally or physically incapable of such. I believe armed with the correct information we're all pretty damn capable.

Kittin, I'm for reform to this system as are most Americans. The polls reflect that, but this bill misses the mark on too many counts and I'm not sure it won't make things worse in some cases.

I don't know if you know much about Belgium's health care program, but from what ishy has told me about it, I would really like to investigate it more closely along with a few other countries programs that seem market based, but regulated for the good of the populace. Some commercial and business regulation should be legislated, it's when they compromise personal liberties that I started getting riled up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

I understand your stance here. I only stated I hate legislation for or against.

It's your personal choice, hence liberty should be yours, not the state or feds.



Actually, it's between a patient and her doctor. It's not a lifestyle choice, no matter what some would have us believe. It's a medical decision, and not a pretty one, not an easy one, not a happy one, but a necessary one for whomever makes it. As such, I fail to see why it shouldn't be covered by the healthcare bill. The only reason it will be dropped from it is because of moralizers who feel it's okay to have vasectomies on the national dime, but not abortions. The double standard is really quite baffling.

If men got pregnant, it would be a completely different kettle of fish. I don't know whether this is tragic or hilarious .



_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 350
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 9:01:41 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
I've experienced the French, Swiss, and British healthcare systems in depth. Ask away.

_____________________________



(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 351
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 9:09:21 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
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Well ishy says (and I may need to get her in on this for a more accurate representation) that Belgium's system works off a program where market based non government (non-profit) insurance companies are available through pools or something like that and you choose what plan you want and it is deducted from your income tax deductions or something like that. But it seems all workers pay into this "pool" in one way or another. I suspect that, like with the American proposal is why the premiums are controlled more efficiently.

Now while there is more to health care reform, cost seems to be the biggest or at least first priority too most.

Does one of your experiences have a plan that reflects what I just described?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I've experienced the French, Swiss, and British healthcare systems in depth. Ask away.



Edited to add: shit I'm highjacking my own thread, well maybe kittin and my discussion here will start a valuable line of questions and answers and a thread can then be started towards that end.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 3/19/2010 9:12:19 AM >


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 352
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 9:11:01 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
To me, Doctors are advisors, just like Attorneys or any other trained professional. The choice in the end should be the individuals, unless mentally or physically incapable of such. I believe armed with the correct information we're all pretty damn capable.

No argument with any of the rest of that, Bull (France's regulated and subsidised system is seen as one of the best in Europe), but I'd question this bit. If you're fool enough, you can represent yourself in court, but you won't get very for writing yourself a prescription (unless you're an MD yourself) and as for performing surgery on yourself...

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(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 353
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 9:15:01 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 4206
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
To me, Doctors are advisors, just like Attorneys or any other trained professional. The choice in the end should be the individuals, unless mentally or physically incapable of such. I believe armed with the correct information we're all pretty damn capable.

No argument with any of the rest of that, Bull (France's regulated and subsidised system is seen as one of the best in Europe), but I'd question this bit. If you're fool enough, you can represent yourself in court, but you won't get very for writing yourself a prescription (unless you're an MD yourself) and as for performing surgery on yourself...



I view the above procedures and labors as acts, not decisions Moon. While you may not be able to perform the surgery, it is or at least should be your choice to have it.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 354
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 9:16:07 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
Joined: 1/3/2006
From: Increasingly further from reality
Status: offline
quote:

Federal funds will be available for abortions in this bill. That is the hang up.
So fucking what? What exactly is the problem with federal funds being used to perform a 100% legal medical procedure? Besides, Willbeur & I agreed that this is as it should be...therefore the issue is settled

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Profile   Post #: 355
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 9:16:54 AM   
Moonhead


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I thought it was, particularly under the American system. There's a lot of cases of people who've died because they refused to take insulin or have blood transfusions for religious reasons, aren't there?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 356
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 9:20:24 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

Federal funds will be available for abortions in this bill. That is the hang up.
So fucking what? What exactly is the problem with federal funds being used to perform a 100% legal medical procedure?


My point exactly.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 357
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 9:23:03 AM   
Moonhead


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Sadly, it looks like that point will never play in Peoria...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 358
RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 9:26:02 AM   
Muirren


Posts: 79
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I don't understand what the problem is. Many women today have educated themselves and know how to safely abort a fetus without the help of the government or their doctors.

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RE: Women's Rights! - 3/19/2010 9:26:21 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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This is the U.S. EVERYTHING is about abortion, from Arbor Day to Zoos.

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Profile   Post #: 360
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