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RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/19/2010 11:33:35 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Yeah, okay. Caterpillar is an EVIL Republican corporation... 

You probably believe that every notable company is an evil Republican mouthpiece, fighting to steal generic medicine and dog food dinners out of the mouths of the poorest of the poor elderly people. Its all an evil plot, isn't it, and conspiracies abound...

Its got to be true, doesn't it - because Moveon and HuffPo and DailyKOS tell you so! 






If you don't understand what other people are saying, just ask them to dumb it down to your level. I'm sure most of us would be happy to oblige, and you could save yourself the embarrassment of having to make up and attack things they never even said.

Not that the rest of us don't get a giggle out of watching you, of course. But it does get a little painful to watch sometimes.

Fuck that Panda....most of us would have a hard assed time dumming down enough so that nit-wit could get it.You simply expect too much of us my friend.

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 3/19/2010 11:35:48 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 12:00:33 AM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Musicmystery,

I am in a wait and see mode right now to see if the new legislation will reduce the cost of purchasing health insurance on my own and if preexisting conditions will be fully covered.

Vendaval

_____________________________

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So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
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(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 6:38:26 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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No McBride, you and Panda are so far to the left that you two are shaking hands with RealOne right where the two fringes meet.

And if all of your hooey isn't from the nether regions of your bowels then provide a link. The reason you throw that shit of yours against the wall without a link is that you know we'd all laugh at you if you told us where you're getting it from. You say you want us to look it up? I say bullshit, you're obviously already at the page you're pasting it from, paste a link too while you're at it.

Oh wait, thats right, you can't. We'd all laugh at you wouldn't we.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mcbride


You're a funny guy, Sanity. I'm more of a radical centrist, and I run my own business, so take a pill and try to stop the tantrum.  I'm sure you didn't mean to, but you're unfairly tarring all business with the Caterpillar brush. As for the facts about Caterpillar, anyone can look all of them up, hun.
  • The company is one of the largest corporate contributors to the Republican party.
  • Caterpillar was a leader in the fight against patients' rights legislation that would have created liability for HMOs that harm patients through negligence.
  • Ed Kaleta, who headed government affairs for Caterpillar Inc, is now the head Washington lobbyist for Humana, the fourth-largest for-profit private health insurer.
  • Donald V. Fites, a former CEO and chairman of Caterpillar, is a prominent member of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, a political committee devoted to increasing the number of Republicans in the Senate.


Forgive me, Musicmystery. It needed correcting.





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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 8:29:56 AM   
mcbride


Posts: 333
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

And if all of your hooey isn't from the nether regions of your bowels then provide a link. The reason you throw that shit of yours against the wall without a link is that you know we'd all laugh at you if you told us where you're getting it from. You say you want us to look it up? I say bullshit, you're obviously already at the page you're pasting it from, paste a link too while you're at it.

Oh wait, thats right, you can't. We'd all laugh at you wouldn't we.


Oh, you're so cute when your face gets all red like that.

Now, hun, who'd laugh? As you keep relearning, I always have plenty of sources. The reason I "throw that shit of mine against the wall without a link" is that seems like overkill in this case, since I'm just shining some light on your misleading and off-topic post, and most people are easily capable of looking it up for themselves.

The links are easy.  I'm afraid I can't offer Daily Kos or the other sites you're afraid of, dear.  There are a number of independent, non-partisan organizations that track this stuff.  It's not rocket science, but I'm sorry you didn't know this stuff when you posted.

   * Caterpillar is one of the largest corporate contributors to the Republican party.
opensecrets.org
opensecrets.org
knowthecandidates.org

   * Caterpillar was a leader in the fight against patients' rights legislation that would have created liability for HMOs that harm patients through negligence.
nytimes.com 

   * Ed Kaleta, who headed government affairs for Caterpillar Inc, is now the head Washington lobbyist for Humana, the fourth-largest for-profit private health insurer.
prnewswire.com  humana.com  opensecrets.org

   * Donald V. Fites, a former CEO and chairman of Caterpillar, is a prominent member of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, a political committee devoted to increasing the number of Republicans in the Senate.
nndb.com nndb.com 

Again, apologies to Musicmystery for having to help out poor Sanity in his off-topic voyage. If anyone else needs something clarified, I'd be glad to help.


(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 8:48:47 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Simply ignoring him would probably be more productive.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 9:06:37 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Let's get back on track, please.


I doubt it will help, Muse, but I really don't know that I'm going to be able to do much.  Like a couple hundred million Americans, I'll likely just get swept along.

I wonder about something though.  A few years ago, I quit my job for a very different one.  It was a risk, with a pay cut to begin with.  It was tight.  I had a nasty note from my bank about insufficient funds a week before my first promotion.  For six months, I didn't have any health insurance.  If I had been subject to having my tax return confiscated to pay a fine over that, could I have still pulled it off?  Will I be able to take the next crazy leap of faith the universe places into my path?


Hi Rich,

I hear you, but I can't really agree either. New regulations could just as easily allow health care options to encourage that risk. I know I certainly wouldn't want to foot COBRA payments, especially on reduced income.

I'm not good with the swept along stuff either--that again is looking to government to solve people's problems, just as much as the liberal side of things---just looking at different solutions. And like I mentioned to Panda, when we have nothing but vague (or no) notions about what we'll do in a response to a situation, it's a pretty vague threat, and not much of an objective crisis.

For example---when rents climbed and climbed, me just out of college and struggling along, I couldn't afford to just get swept along. Since I wanted to live in the country anyway, I did what I could to get inexpensive land (at the time) and improve it. All the money started going to me instead of landlords. When the Bush tax cuts went into place regardless of our structural economic condition, I kept a lucrative second gig on top of my full time one and put every cent into 403(b) and Roth IRA accounts, making sure I won't need Social Security if it vanishes or gets gutted. When petroleum prices doubled the price of gasoline and fuel oil and tripled the price of fresh fruits and veggies, I invested in additional structures to better insulate (cutting my fuel bill by 2/3), elected to continue to drive small, fuel efficient cars (38-40 mpg...I drive 30,000 miles a year), and started my orchards, vineyards and gardens (I have a lot of land). I also contribute steadily to a cash cushion.

Now, those are unique choices to me, incorporating my preferences, but they are solid responses to specific threats I perceived. I'm not the "swept along" type. I look for solutions.

Since people are clamoring about the consequences of this bill, they must have specific problems in mind, or they're just full of nebulous rhetoric, not substance. For those that see the substance, solutions will be needed.

Wilbeur and Merc, for example, have provided exactly this, solutions based on the problems they foresee and suited to their lives, preferences and choices.

Panda, eyesopened, and DomCT have more nebulous notions, a long way yet from identifying specific issues and solutions.

The others have attitudes and nothing to say on this topic.

For those with solutions, what are yours?


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 9:11:17 AM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Eventually I'll be forced to cut out health insurance for my employees, pay the fine and send them off to the government program. I'll pay them the difference between what health care would cost me and the fine, so Obama has forced a portion of their income to be taxed. (So much for no taxes on the middle class). I will pursue tax shelters far more vigorously than I have, and probably stay neutral or reduce my taxes. When I am able to I will move to a no income tax state.


And of course, because you are a good employer, you will give your employees a raise equal to the money you were paying for insurance minus the fine...is that right?

You know just to help them out.

Butch


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 9:18:50 AM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The others have attitudes and nothing to say on this topic.

For those with solutions, what are yours?


For me, regarding the health care bill - wait and see how my company reacts and what changes they make to their insurance plans and then change my options - which could simply mean choosing the best option then offered, or changing my jobs to something that offers better options or, at worst, relocating to somewhere I'm more comfortable with.

I don't believe that, in the short term, the effects of the healthcare bill will result in me making radical changes to my lifestyle.

I do feel that there's a huge change coming - a tsunami of economic and political upheavel - that's sort of below the radar.  I believe the healthcare bill will exacerbate the effects of this in the long run. Exactly how this will play out is hugely dependent on the actions that governments take (not regarding health care but regarding economics and geopolitics) - both here in the U.S. and in Europe, in China and at the IMF - and so it's almost impossible to predict how and where the results will surface.

To that end - I'm diversifying my savings - trying to make certain it's not solely dependent on one economy or one currency. I'm investing some of it overseas, some of it in commodities, and some of it in various currencies. I'm looking into currency trading both as way to make more money, to further diversify my savings and to keep a better finger on the pulse of what's going on. I'm revamping my resume and looking into job markets in various areas of the country and places outside the country I'd be willing to live to see how things are shifting and where opportunities are growing rather than shrinking.

Basically, I'm trying to maintain a stance where I can quickly shift once it becomes apparent what the outcome of all this mess is going to be. If it turns out that the outcome is total recovery, I haven't hurt myself in any way, but if it's unpleasant I won't be caught in a position where I'm wiped out because a particular region, industry segment or currency got crushed.

< Message edited by InvisibleBlack -- 3/20/2010 9:20:57 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 10:00:28 AM   
tazzygirl


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< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 3/20/2010 10:10:18 AM >

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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 10:03:04 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Sorry Master Tim.


No. Start your own fucking Caterpillar thread.

[You could even quote the posts so far to get the new thread going.]




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/20/2010 10:08:26 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 10:05:29 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Basically, I'm trying to maintain a stance where I can quickly shift once it becomes apparent what the outcome of all this mess is going to be. If it turns out that the outcome is total recovery, I haven't hurt myself in any way, but if it's unpleasant I won't be caught in a position where I'm wiped out because a particular region, industry segment or currency got crushed.


Thanks IB. That's my general stance as well.

I can't control what happens, but I can control my readiness to respond and adapt.

And as you say, if what I worry about doesn't come to pass, no harm done--and I'm left with the stronger position just the same.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 10:09:40 AM   
tazzygirl


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_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 10:46:14 AM   
Musicmystery


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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 10:48:04 AM   
Musicmystery


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 10:51:46 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

In Canada, it is MANDITORY that you accept either the company's (at a discount) recommended insuarance corporation (they come in and do their lil talk/speel..with new employees) or you PROVE (by showing an insurance card--benefits) with another company.

I guess if you don't, you are canned...because you cannot BOTH have a decent job PLUS accept govt. subsidized health care.
And which Canada is that? It sure isn't the one I live in...you know the actual reality-based Canada.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 10:53:54 AM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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How reality based can it be if you actually believe that your health care is "free"?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

In Canada, it is MANDITORY that you accept either the company's (at a discount) recommended insuarance corporation (they come in and do their lil talk/speel..with new employees) or you PROVE (by showing an insurance card--benefits) with another company.

I guess if you don't, you are canned...because you cannot BOTH have a decent job PLUS accept govt. subsidized health care.
And which Canada is that? It sure isn't the one I live in...you know the actual reality-based Canada.


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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 11:03:36 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Eventually I'll be forced to cut out health insurance for my employees, pay the fine and send them off to the government program. I'll pay them the difference between what health care would cost me and the fine, so Obama has forced a portion of their income to be taxed. (So much for no taxes on the middle class). I will pursue tax shelters far more vigorously than I have, and probably stay neutral or reduce my taxes. When I am able to I will move to a no income tax state.

And of course, because you are a good employer, you will give your employees a raise equal to the money you were paying for insurance minus the fine...is that right?

You know just to help them out.

Butch


What's the problem here, Butch? It's exactly what he said.

And why not? It's the same amount of money. Slash compensation, and people will leave--to work for competitors.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 11:47:18 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Eventually I'll be forced to cut out health insurance for my employees, pay the fine and send them off to the government program. I'll pay them the difference between what health care would cost me and the fine, so Obama has forced a portion of their income to be taxed. (So much for no taxes on the middle class). I will pursue tax shelters far more vigorously than I have, and probably stay neutral or reduce my taxes. When I am able to I will move to a no income tax state.

And of course, because you are a good employer, you will give your employees a raise equal to the money you were paying for insurance minus the fine...is that right?

You know just to help them out.

Butch


What's the problem here, Butch? It's exactly what he said.

And why not? It's the same amount of money. Slash compensation, and people will leave--to work for competitors.


No problem...I was thinking what government plan...I thought there was not to be a government option...you have to admit there is not much information on the nuts and bolts. Yes I know I could go search and read the proposal online…but not sure I could understand it. Would it not have been nice to get the particulars out to the general public?

Just me but I think if there had been more information and examples there would be less opposition to the plan…People would have a better idea how it would work for them.

It should be the job of our representatives to get this information to us…not rhetoric on both sides with no real information.

Perhaps willbeurdaddy would not be so ready to dump his employees if he had more information.

Butch


_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 11:49:01 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Basically, I'm trying to maintain a stance where I can quickly shift once it becomes apparent what the outcome of all this mess is going to be. If it turns out that the outcome is total recovery, I haven't hurt myself in any way, but if it's unpleasant I won't be caught in a position where I'm wiped out because a particular region, industry segment or currency got crushed.


Thanks IB. That's my general stance as well.

I can't control what happens, but I can control my readiness to respond and adapt.

And as you say, if what I worry about doesn't come to pass, no harm done--and I'm left with the stronger position just the same.


I really think that for the majority of Americans - those of us who are not business owners, CEOs, CFOs, human resource specialists, or employed in the health care field - that's all we can do. Most of us will not be directly, substantively affected by this bill for almost 4 years, and there's just no way at all for anyone to accurately predict what's going to be happening 4 months from now, let alone 4 years. There are way too many interdependent variables, cascading over too long a period of time, to know how it's all going to settle out. All you can do is make your position as flexible as possible, resist the urge to lock in to rigid preconceptions, and be prepared to adapt.


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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Life with a new health care bill - 3/20/2010 12:07:59 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
there's just no way at all for anyone to accurately predict what's going to be happening 4 months from now, let alone 4 years. There are way too many interdependent variables, cascading over too long a period of time, to know how it's all going to settle out.



Completely correct in one sense, Panda, but utter poppycock in another.  We have a long and established history of how gov't entitlement programs work out.  They always cost far more than is ever suggested at this stage of the game and can be counted on to be loaded up with unanticipated (or obvious but ignored) consequences.

The administration has failed miserably in attempts to sell this monstrosity (which is probably getting worse by the minute as the backroom deals roll along) to the American people, and, if they should choose to ram it down our throats anyway, the Democrats will very shortly lose the ability to fix anything bigger than a parking ticket.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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