RE: Abortion (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Abortion


I'm against ALL abortions
  2% (4)
I'm for allowing abortion in ANY circumstance
  26% (38)
I'm against it, unless the LIFE of the mother is at risk
  6% (10)
I'm for it being legal, but I hate it
  23% (34)
I'm against it, unless the general health of the mom is at risk
  4% (6)
Keep it legal, only if rape, incest or the mom's life is involved
  6% (10)
I don't care one way or the other
  3% (5)
I believe there is life at conception
  13% (19)
I believe life begins between 3 and 9 months
  6% (10)
I believe life only begins after birth
  6% (10)


Total Votes : 146
(last vote on : 3/18/2011 4:38:46 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message


Kirata -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 7:56:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

Level and Kirata, please report to the punitentiary forthwith, for a well deserved punishment. [:D]

I'm too Jung to go to jail.

K.




WyldHrt -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 7:59:03 PM)

quote:

Okay seriously, how did this get to a debate of "which kills more people organ failure or abortion?"
Unless this is going to be a stem cell debate, the two are entirely separate.

That wasn't the question, Elisa. My question was, "If a child needs a transplant to save it's life, should the biological father, if a match, be compelled to donate an organ (liver or kidney)?"

ETA- as the line of inquiry has gone nowhere, I am dropping it.




Elisabella -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 7:59:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

Okay seriously, how did this get to a debate of "which kills more people organ failure or abortion?"
Unless this is going to be a stem cell debate, the two are entirely separate.

That wasn't the question, Elisa. My question was, "If a child needs a transplant to save it's life, should the biological father, if a match, be compelled to donate an organ (liver or kidney)?"



That's a fair enough question but it's gotten waaaay off topic from there.




WyldHrt -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:00:40 PM)

quote:

That's a fair enough question but it's gotten waaaay off topic from there.

So I noticed.




domiguy -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:03:40 PM)

I voted that a woman should have an abortion whenever she gets pregnant.

I am not all that fond of people and I think this will work out better for everyone in the long run.




Elisabella -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:05:18 PM)

Anyway as far as the question goes, I think Level was deflecting a bit in saying there were other donors.

Perhaps to reword the question - If a child needed an organ transplant and the biological father was the only person who could donate, and without that donation the child would die, would he be legally obligated to do so?

I see that as a fair parallel to abortion, presuming the risks of the transplant surgery are about parallel to the risks of giving birth.




WyldHrt -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:07:21 PM)

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
What I'm getting at, Level, is that you seem to have no issue with forcing a woman to risk her health on an unwanted pregnancy.

Then you haven't read, or understood, much of what I've said.

Then please explain it to me. I went back through both this thread and the Women's Rights thread (I will get you for that! LOL), and here is what I found (red color added by me):
quote:

If a doctor states the pregnancy is a risk to her life, then I understand the abortion.
If a doctor states that her reproductive health is at risk, but not her life, then I place the value of the child over the right to abort

quote:

It is almost for certain that the woman did not use protection, or insist the man do so (which she shouldn't need to do). Yes, accidents happen, but generally, no protection was used. So, am I wanting her "punished" for having sex? Nope. But there are consequences to our actions. It is tragic, it is sad.

quote:

There are millions, and millions, and millions of children that have been aborted for reasons other than "health". The mother alone held the key to life or death.

quote:

To the OP: Bull, I do fall on the pro-life side, most always, but it has always bothered me that those views do remove some of a woman's say-so over her body. It just bothers me less than ending the child's life.





Level -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:07:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

Level and Kirata, please report to the punitentiary forthwith, for a well deserved punishment. [:D]

I'm too Jung to go to jail.

K.




They want to Locke us up!




WyldHrt -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:08:54 PM)

quote:

I see that as a fair parallel to abortion, presuming the risks of the transplant surgery are about parallel to the risks of giving birth.

Thank you! I didn't think I was all that far into left field, but was beginning to wonder. [:D]




Level -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:10:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Anyway as far as the question goes, I think Level was deflecting a bit in saying there were other donors.

Perhaps to reword the question - If a child needed an organ transplant and the biological father was the only person who could donate, and without that donation the child would die, would he be legally obligated to do so?

I see that as a fair parallel to abortion, presuming the risks of the transplant surgery are about parallel to the risks of giving birth.


What it is, is putting forth a make believe scenario, and comparing it to what happens every day in real life.




Elisabella -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:13:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
What it is, is putting forth a make believe scenario, and comparing it to what happens every day in real life.


Which doesn't matter when discussing the ethics of the thing. The base of your premise - a parent is obligated to ensure that a child lives, whether or not they want to care for the child, unless a physician says that it will put the parent's life in danger - either has to stand on its own merits, or you have to find a new premise to explain why abortion is immoral.




sweetboundesire -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:15:09 PM)

I am 100% for abortion 100% being up to the woman.

it is waaaay to difficult a choice to persecute for. It's none of your damn biznas. None.

That saaaid, consider the advantages of the babe's mama keeping the little fucker....
if she decide the father is still worth a shit and wants him around she will learn much faster
what a mistake she made and what a crappy father and man in her life he is.
Children bring out the worst in couples. It's be true! lol funny but serious.
keeping the father but not the little babe will take the lil' mama a lot longer to catch on to the mistake she has made..

backwards way of looking at it but still one way~




Level -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:24:02 PM)

Wyld, I've also said that I understand the anguish women go through, and that I understand how fucked up it is to for someone else to tell them what to do with their body, and life. That's where I disagree with:

quote:

you seem to have no issue with forcing a woman to risk her health on an unwanted pregnancy.


I DO have issues with it. I don't like it, at all, and I'm not indifferent to it.

What I am also saying, is that I see what's inside of the woman as a life. That which becomes us. And I've posted, a number of times, the stats showing that a very large percentage of abortions are not for health. That, overwhelmingly, is what I take issue with.

When we get to the health aspect, I see two general groups: possible risks to a woman's reproductive health, meaning she may not be able to get pregnant again, and the other, a risk to her very life.

To end the child's life, to save hers, I get.

To end the child's life, to enable her to get pregnant again, I don't. Doesn't mean I don't empathize, I do. Honest to God I do. And I don't see her as a criminal, these women that chose to abort, to save their reproductive health. I disagree, but that's it. Maybe this makes me immoral, as julia said, I think. I agree. I'm not a moral man.




WyldHrt -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 8:38:12 PM)

quote:

Wyld, I've also said that I understand the anguish women go through, and that I understand how fucked up it is to for someone else to tell them what to do with their body, and life. That's where I disagree with:
quote:

you seem to have no issue with forcing a woman to risk her health on an unwanted pregnancy.

I DO have issues with it. I don't like it, at all, and I'm not indifferent to it.

I wish that you had told me what, specifically you were objecting to; I could have done without a whirlwind rehash tour of these 2 threads [:'(].

The fact of the matter though, is that you are willing to attempt to coerce a woman into carrying a child that she does not want, which is easier said than done. As the stats I provided show, making abortion illegal does not lessen the number of abortions, it only increases the number of women who will die from them.






tazzygirl -> RE: Abortion (3/22/2010 9:35:23 PM)

quote:

I would be lying if I said I wasn't a bit uncomfortable with the inequity of abortion and choice. There is no easy way to do a hard thing. Abortion is a difficult thing. When two people disagree about a pregnancy that they both created, that is a hard thing.

It really does come down to the person who will have to carry the child to term. Unfortunately there is no other way. When we figure out how men can get pregnant then the point will be moot...


Lets say, for example, that men were allowed to have a say in abortion issues. What would keep a man from saying his ex cannot have an abortion, though she wants one, simply to prevent her from moving on with her life? What would prevent a man from insisting a woman have an abortion, even if he were not the father, just out of spite, meanness, or pure hatred?

So now we come to a point i havent seen yet, but i may have missed it. We know who the mother is... we dont know who the father is till after birth. Most Drs and women wont go through the risk of an amnio... which cannot be done till 10 to 12 weeks of gestation... pushing the time frame here a bit.

http://babies.sutterhealth.org/during/preg_prenataltests.html#Chorionic Villus Sampling (CVS)





zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Abortion (3/23/2010 2:47:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth

Jung= about 400/yr

I can believe it. Some of his stuff was tough going. [:D]

K.



LOL it was late, so sue me. [:D]




StrangerThan -> RE: Abortion (3/23/2010 3:54:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I feel the same way Angel does - that the fetus belongs to both the mother and the father, but at the same time I feel that until technology gives us reliable and affordable incubators so that the woman doesn't have to carry the child to term, she shouldn't be prevented from abortion.

That being said I feel that while abortion is legal, there should be an equivalent option for the father to abdicate all paternal rights and responsibilities, because if a woman has the right to choose whether or not she will become a mother, a father should have the same right. It bothers me how the "if you didn't want to become a parent you shouldn't have had sex" argument is supported when it comes to child support payments but not for abortion.


This is pretty close to where I fall as well. If you've been involved with a pregnancy, gone to the doctors, watched the pictures flow out across the ultra sound from week to week, there is no doubt that life begins at conception.

People will argue all day long about what that means, about whose body is whose, but the bottom line is that in choosing to abort, the choice is to end a life. All the fine, sanitary words we are taught to use around that act ignore the basic fact that no where else does simple governance of one's body give one the right to end another life. I say simple, because there are extreme circumstances that go beyond the simple choice and boil over into self preservation or cases of victimization - cases that are often used as the rule to which any abortion debate must toe the line.

Incest, rape, health of the mother are the proving ground of any debate on this topic because they are reasonable grounds for turning the conversation more from choice to necessity. Unfortunately, they are also used as standard bearers in any and every debate on it, regardless of the intent.

There are three fronts on which I think pro-lifers can make inroads into the abortion debate. One is the viability factor. If abortion foes can tie legislation to the point of viability, then they will have succeeded in essentially identifying an end to most abortions. That point, viable, has been pushed back over the decades and will continue to be pushed back. If they can successfully link legislation to it, the time will come when most abortions will no longer be legal.

The second is rights of the father. In the age of infinitely defining rights, this one has battles yet to fight, and needs only an agreeable court to find traction because the reality of choice goes far beyond the "it's my body" stance. In choosing to abort, what is destroyed is part of both. In choosing to bring to term, one half of the equation is then held to financial responsibility that lasts for years. The idiot will say, keep it in your pants, while ignoring the same issue on the other side. Both took part, not just one, but one has the control to enact what is essentially a binding legal contract on the other by whatever choice she makes.

The third is the point where life begins. I chose at the moment of conception in the poll above. It is not a choice I would have made a couple of years ago, but having been through a difficult pregnancy with my submissive and having those weekly visits with the ultrasound, there is no question left in my mind where life begins. You can watch it unfold, step by step. I've heard and even used the term parasitic in relation to what those first few weeks are, but again, the viability point comes into play. In describing it as parasitic, I am basically saying, There's a parasite there that will become human when I decide it bothers me enough to consider it human. Kind of a bullshit stance.

I've always supported the right to abortion because I became a father at 16 and know exactly how long and hard that road is, and because I don't see it as my business to decide what other people do. Either way, I chose the life at conception option above because I believe it to be an overriding truth. And that leaves me thoughtful.




juliaoceania -> RE: Abortion (3/23/2010 6:55:21 AM)

If I felt abortion was murder I would not see how two wrongs make a right... how creating another victim rights the original wrong... to me that is ludicrous. Since I do not see the embyro as a sentient being I have no conflict. I feel no sense of deep intense wrongness when fertility clinics throw out collections of living cells that people have decided not to use. If you say those are living people, then you should really advocate for the people that are being thrown away in cell dishes that did not get a host. They were created knowingly! If your point is that life begins at conception, and that it is just a matter of development, then that would be a place you should start... stop invtitro fertilization




youngsubgeoff -> RE: Abortion (3/23/2010 7:05:46 AM)

Ive got one bug with the abortion, and really the whole pregnancy thing in general: The man has absoluetly no say in what happens with that child. If she decides to keep the baby, the legal system forces the man to take responsibility for the child. If she decides to abort or give the child up for adoption, he again has no say in the matter.

So your going to tell me I have to take responsibility, but give me no rights whatsoever? Fuck that, I'll use a condom.




Lucylastic -> RE: Abortion (3/23/2010 7:38:42 AM)

good.every time without fail....




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