quote:

Over the weekend, i asked a question of those present, which i would like to ask here of those who are in a obedience based M/s relationship and that question is this, do you (a) have a punishment dynamic, (b) think there has to be some mechanism to deal with mistakes/disobedience, or (c) can a M/s relationship work with no way to deal with mistakes/disobedience."

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Since the questions at the start of your post (the ones quoted above) were addressed to everybody, I don't quite see the point of moving this thread from General BDSM to "Ask a Master." (confused look at mods). But since they are addressed to everyone, I'll throw down my two c's, something I seldom do in this forum as I'd prefer to let dominants answer questions addressed to dominants.

Yes, I think there has to be some mechanism to deal with mistakes/disobedience in master/slave relationship. Perhaps not in other sorts of power exchanges. As much as punishment hurts (and if it is to be effective as memory aid it has to hurt) , it (or it's possibility) is also immensely reassuring to those who seek out slavery. It assures the slave that s/he is safe, contained, really controlled, that she can't just run wild. It's also far more resassuring to know you will be punished if you do wrong than to fear your dominant will walk out on you or drop you if you do wrong. I don't know how those slaves who have a constant threat of abandonment hanging over them manage to function and be happy or relaxed in a relationship. One or maybe two little wrong turns and boom! their life with the dominant is over. (shudder) Punishment, even of the most severe nature, is far preferable to that. If a master don't deal firmly with disobedience (or mistakes, when made for the wrong reasons or too frequently) in his slave,he is not only not getting hiscommands met or his control respected and complied with, but he are also faced with other, more ugly choices: let the "slave" get away with each time until she controls from the bottom or break up would could have been a very happy long-lasting power exchange because he's, to put it bluntly, too much of a pansy to administer punishment or discipline when it is needed.

You are right that punishment doesn't have to take a bdsm-whipping form. If you have probalems dealing with that sort of punishment, there is a world of things a dominant could make you do or experience instead, things that would not remind you of those childhood shadows. Make you walk five or ten miles a day (or whatever your condition can bear and would find terribly hard to do) for a week... or two. Have you do a lot of extra housecleaning but with handicaps: shackled ankles, for instance, or a toothbrush instead of a scrub brush. Put ice down your panties, let it melt, put ice down your panties again, let it melt, etc. That is an agonizing epxerience but there's almost nobody who has ever had that done to them in childhood, so it doesn't call up the flashbacks or bad associations. It's just, terribly, bitterly cold ice in your pants. Depriving a slave of privledges, is also a very effective punishment, particularly if it is something the person really likes and is used to getting.

I think some dominants are wrong in thinking that physical punishment involving bdsm equipment will be percieved by a slave as "play." We can see you're disappointed/angry/displeased with us. That puts an instant and very strong damper on the idea of "playtime." And you can certainly "heat" the play-like behavior up several degrees to the point where it isn't play for us, just pain.

I don't know the answer to (c). All I can say is it wouldn't work for me and I'm pretty far along on the very obedient end of the spectrum.



_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to dreamerdreaming)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

*G* as it happens My answer to a) also answered b) as in that's the way it works in this household and realism answers c) given there WILL be mistakes and possibly some for of disobedience from time to time, even if not wilful, therefore the relationship has to have some form of problem solving mechanism to deal with them. Even 'nilla's have to have some way to handle problems, even if not negotiated, else the relationship ends at the first major hurdle. Within an M/s Dynamic it is the Masters responsibility to set out clearly the way HE will handle such problems and hopefully that will be a way compatible with what the girl can work within. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: osf

thinks we should differentiate between correctable behavior and punishable behavior

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

you are not the disobedient type, youre yearning to be brave enough to give into an Ms relationship is entirely because you wish to be able to safely hand youreself over to someone who will value youre obedience and desire to please and serve them.

having been a slave to someone, wilfull and scatty as i am, the fabric of Ms made it near impossible for me to disobey or flout rules - because to do so would have felt too much like i was undermining the very thing i valued so much and would have been deeply disrespectful to the Master i was with.

people who repeatedly or capably flout rules and/or expectations are in a punishment dynamic because they want/need/respond to being punished.  a strong statement i know, but i think im right.

so.... for you to be afraid of punishment goes a bit deeper than just the actual act of it.  its the whole failing to live up to the standards laid down.  but youre not that sort of person and personally i dont think you should find youreself a Master who believes in punishment as the first and last resort for lots of reasons, but mainly because youre not the disobedient type but also because of the trauma attached to the whole idea of it.

in the end there are no hard and fast rules on how an Ms relationship should be arranged.  its about two adults working out together how theyre adult relationship is going to go down for their mutual benefit and pleasure.

there doesnt have to be punishment but there does have to be repurcussions if the TPE dynamic is undermined by the slave, otherwise the TPE starts to unravel.  for some, having a Master who'll punish them for basically undermining the TPE is reassuring - it provides a boundary fence over which they cannot climb - it gives them firm parameters to work within - some need that focal point to keep them ticking along.  you dont.  everyone is different, every relationship is different according to the personalities involved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

Since the questions at the start of your post (the ones quoted above) were addressed to everybody, I don't quite see the point of moving this thread from General BDSM to "Ask a Master." (confused look at mods). But since they are addressed to everyone, I'll throw down my two c's, something I seldom do in this forum as I'd prefer to let dominants answer questions addressed to dominants.

Yes, I think there has to be some mechanism to deal with mistakes/disobedience in master/slave relationship. Perhaps not in other sorts of power exchanges. As much as punishment hurts (and if it is to be effective as memory aid it has to hurt) , it (or it's possibility) is also immensely reassuring to those who seek out slavery. It assures the slave that s/he is safe, contained, really controlled, that she can't just run wild. It's also far more resassuring to know you will be punished if you do wrong than to fear your dominant will walk out on you or drop you if you do wrong. I don't know how those slaves who have a constant threat of abandonment hanging over them manage to function and be happy or relaxed in a relationship. One or maybe two little wrong turns and boom! their life with the dominant is over. (shudder) Punishment, even of the most severe nature, is far preferable to that. If a master don't deal firmly with disobedience (or mistakes, when made for the wrong reasons or too frequently) in his slave,he is not only not getting hiscommands met or his control respected and complied with, but he are also faced with other, more ugly choices: let the "slave" get away with each time until she controls from the bottom or break up would could have been a very happy long-lasting power exchange because he's, to put it bluntly, too much of a pansy to administer punishment or discipline when it is needed.

You are right that punishment doesn't have to take a bdsm-whipping form. If you have probalems dealing with that sort of punishment, there is a world of things a dominant could make you do or experience instead, things that would not remind you of those childhood shadows. Make you walk five or ten miles a day (or whatever your condition can bear and would find terribly hard to do) for a week... or two. Have you do a lot of extra housecleaning but with handicaps: shackled ankles, for instance, or a toothbrush instead of a scrub brush. Put ice down your panties, let it melt, put ice down your panties again, let it melt, etc. That is an agonizing epxerience but there's almost nobody who has ever had that done to them in childhood, so it doesn't call up the flashbacks or bad associations. It's just, terribly, bitterly cold ice in your pants. Depriving a slave of privledges, is also a very effective punishment, particularly if it is something the person really likes and is used to getting.

I think some dominants are wrong in thinking that physical punishment involving bdsm equipment will be percieved by a slave as "play." We can see you're disappointed/angry/displeased with us. That puts an instant and very strong damper on the idea of "playtime." And you can certainly "heat" the play-like behavior up several degrees to the point where it isn't play for us, just pain.

I don't know the answer to (c). All I can say is it wouldn't work for me and I'm pretty far along on the very obedient end of the spectrum.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Heartfelt, three things to keep in mind when considering advice.

How long do the relationships of the person giving you the advice last?

How did their past relationships end?

Would you want to be in a relationship with a dynamic like theirs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

i do need an Owner/property relationship with a punishment dynamic. However for me and my needs (and my current level of service protocol), it isn't as "gloomy" as punishment is sometime perceived.

i will preface this by saying i was not abused as a child, or any stage in my life really - i have always had healthy relationships for the most part. i think if i had had abuse that this probably would be quite different.

The reason i say that things are "less gloomy" is that for me it is less about "being punished" and more about correction - like you need to take your car in periodically to have the steering aligned. It's just something that happens. So if i make a mistake in my service (yes a bit more high protocol) then a simple correction is all that's needed to get me back on track. And a correction can take many forms, not all of them physical.

i tend to view "true punishment" for the big bad things, sometimes done with a certain measure of intent - and i just don't disobey intentionally. i do everything in my power to be obedient, i own my obedience, and if i am ever disobedient it is either because i have lost the ability to be obedient for some reason, or i am having a moment of outright rebellion (it does happen). If either one of those very rare occurences happened, i would need to be punished - and i know that he would need to punish me. It is an entirely different headspace and not fun at all.

Everything else is simply for his fun and amusement.

Of course once i'm Owned again this may change, depending upon how my Owner chooses to handle things - but it is how things are with me here, today. Good luck with the thinking.

quote:



i truly mean no disrespect here, and i'm just wondering - are we all supposed to now preface answers with how long our previous relationship lasted, and how it ended? As in, "hello, i'm julie, slave of 5 years and my relationship ended for reasons completely unrelated to BDSM?"

i do totally agree Heartfelt should consider the dynamic that works for her. i'm just not sure how the first two questions really have any bearing, given all the reasons relationships may end, or how long they last.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

She was at a real life event put on by people who, I presume, were imparting their "knowledge"...as to why they are relevant, if you can't grasp why, then you can't grasp why.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Heartfelt, three things to keep in mind when considering advice.

How long do the relationships of the person giving you the advice last?

How did their past relationships end?

Would you want to be in a relationship with a dynamic like theirs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming

Heartfeltsub, FYI: I do reserve the right to punish my slave, in any way I see fit. He recites that in his creed, every day.

I'm not sure if it helps you, but I thought I'd throw that in.


Re: why an owner/slave dynamic: I came over to this side of the slash because as a slave, I was never truly owned. I needed that dynamic. We all need a sense of belonging.

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

.. And while i completely agree that i shouldn't look for someone who sees punishment as the first and last option, i also don't want to discount someone who is a fabulous M-type (like LadyPact (for example)) just because they do hold out the right to punish if necessary.

.