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Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 2:49:07 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline 		This years harvest of the poppy fields in Marja will proceed as usual and the heroin will go onto the world market. Is this a clear cut situation or is there room for compromise because of the financial dependency of the farmers in the Marja region? Will these actions aid or discourage the Taliban?


U.S. Turns a Blind Eye to Opium in Afghan Town

By ROD NORDLAND
Published: March 20, 2010

KABUL, Afghanistan — The effort to win over Afghans on former Taliban turf in Marja has put American and NATO commanders in the unusual position of arguing against opium eradication, pitting them against some Afghan officials who are pushing to destroy the harvest.


Moises Saman for The New York Times

"Marines landed in an Afghan opium field last month on the outskirts of Marja, where opium is the main crop of the area’s farmers.

From Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal on down, the military’s position is clear: “U.S. forces no longer eradicate,” as one NATO official put it. Opium is the main livelihood of 60 to 70 percent of the farmers in Marja, which was seized from Taliban rebels in a major offensive last month. American Marines occupying the area are under orders to leave the farmers’ fields alone.

“Marja is a special case right now,” said Cmdr. Jeffrey Eggers, a member of the general’s Strategic Advisory Group, his top advisory body. “We don’t trample the livelihood of those we’re trying to win over.”

United Nations drug officials agree with the Americans, though they acknowledge the conundrum. Pictures of NATO and other allied soldiers “walking next to the opium fields won’t go well with domestic audiences, but the approach of postponing eradicating in this particular case is a sensible one,” said Jean-Luc Lemahieu, who is in charge of the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime here.

Afghan officials, however, are divided. Though some support the American position, others, citing a constitutional ban on opium cultivation, want to plow the fields under before the harvest, which has already begun in parts of Helmand Province."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/21/world/asia/21marja.html

(format edit)


< Message edited by Vendaval -- 3/22/2010 2:50:09 PM >

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 3:26:51 PM   
truckinslave


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Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Pay for the crop, then destroy it.

Or just let the Afghans destroy it, then come in and spread some money around.

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 3:58:55 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
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Status: offline 		Frankly, if they don't have the balls to ruin a few farmers, they're wasting their time in Afghanistan in the first place. Sorry: the Taliban likes the rest of the population to be dependent on them. That's why the whole of Afghanistan outside of the capital ignores the government.

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 4:23:04 PM   
truckinslave


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Status: offline 		Well, yeah, there's that too. I was trying to keep with the "hearts and minds" strategy being employed.

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 4:24:37 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		Like that's working...

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 4:47:35 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Pay for the crop, then destroy it.

Or just let the Afghans destroy it, then come in and spread some money around.


I seem to recall that when we first went into Afghanistan we paid for the crop. The next year saw a record harvest for that very reason. The farmers need to be shown how to grow an alternative cash crop, which can be sold via the worlds markets. Turning a blind eye to drug cultivation isnt acceptable.

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 5:10:24 PM   
Elisabella


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Status: offline 		The biggest issue with opium is not whether it's grown, but who it's sold to.

Compare opium with tobacco and it's obvious that growing a plant that creates a lethal and addictive product is not in itself bad, it's only when the product of that plant is forced into black market channels that the resources it provides becomes an issue.

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 5:18:20 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

The biggest issue with opium is not whether it's grown, but who it's sold to.

Compare opium with tobacco and it's obvious that growing a plant that creates a lethal and addictive product is not in itself bad, it's only when the product of that plant is forced into black market channels that the resources it provides becomes an issue.


Comparing opium to tobacco on health grounds is a red herring.

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 5:19:50 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Comparing opium to tobacco on health grounds is a red herring.


You're right, opium is only lethal if an overdose is taken, tobacco products are lethal when used as directed.

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 5:28:12 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


You're right, opium is only lethal if an overdose is taken, tobacco products are lethal when used as directed.


Are you suggesting Opium is safer than tobacco then ? 

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 5:31:11 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


You're right, opium is only lethal if an overdose is taken, tobacco products are lethal when used as directed.


Are you suggesting Opium is safer than tobacco then ? 


No, merely suggesting that the social problems that result from the opium trade (funding terrorism and drug lords in cities) are a direct result of the crop being bought by black market kingpins rather than corporate CEO's, and that if the opium market was similar to the tobacco market we wouldn't be facing this question.

As far as safer goes, I think they're both about equal when used in moderation, and as someone who watched my grandmother suffer the last six months of her life taking vicodin when she needed morphine, the stigma surrounding opium (and all illegal drugs, actually) really bothers me.

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 5:41:19 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
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Status: offline 		I wont argue against any drug being used for medical use. I have a cousin with MS and she would benefit from using cannabis by all accounts. It is the recreational use, which comes across on tv and the movies to be safe, that is doing harm to todays kids. Maybe opium itself shouldnt have the same stigma as its derivative, heroin.

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 5:46:24 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I wont argue against any drug being used for medical use. I have a cousin with MS and she would benefit from using cannabis by all accounts. It is the recreational use, which comes across on tv and the movies to be safe, that is doing harm to todays kids. Maybe opium itself shouldnt have the same stigma as its derivative, heroin.


There are far more adults using heroin recreationally than kids, and age at first use for heroin is often over 18. That being said, even as an 'extremist' who thinks that drugs should be legalized, I do think there should be a minimum age to legally use them, similar to alcohol (the leading cause of auto accidents and its ability to kill your liver is comparable to paracetamol) and tobacco (don't know why one is 18 and one is 21 on this to be honest).

You always hear those news stories that say "teens find it easier to buy pot than to buy beer" - that's because one is tightly regulated and dispensed by people who will lose their business if they break the law, the other is dispensed by some dude who just wants to turn a profit, who'd be arrested if he sold to adults as well as kids so why differentiate?

Anyway this is getting a bit off track, but regardless, the core issue with how to deal with opium fields is keeping the product off the black market.

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 5:46:26 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

This years harvest of the poppy fields in Marja will proceed as usual and the heroin will go onto the world market. Is this a clear cut situation or is there room for compromise because of the financial dependency of the farmers in the Marja region? Will these actions aid or discourage the Taliban?


U.S. Turns a Blind Eye to Opium in Afghan Town



well thats not exactly the way it works.

One needs to keep in mind that england went to war with china when china banned opium because mutha england was the wholesaler and one hooked it had a nice steady market.

Huge income fro mthe drug trade and the cia and mi6 pretty much have that market all wrapped up.

the desert of the real  :)


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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 5:58:05 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


You're right, opium is only lethal if an overdose is taken, tobacco products are lethal when used as directed.


Are you suggesting Opium is safer than tobacco then ? 


Oh yes by several orders of magitude.
Opium and its derivative Heroin while quite addictive(not as addictive as either alcohol or nicotine) is not lethal.  If one were to check the PDR (physicians desk reference) which lists all drugs they would find that the term LD50 is used for all pharmaceuticals which have the ability to cause death.  LD 50 is the dosage of any lethal drug that when given to 100 people 50 will die.
There is no LD 50 for heroin.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 3/22/2010 6:02:20 PM >

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 6:03:32 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
LD 50 is the dosage of any lethal drug that when given to 100 people 50 will die.
There is no LD 50 for heroin.


I'm not sure I believe that, I'm fairly confident that the lethal dose in heroin would be comparatively low to anyone who is not an addict.

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 6:10:09 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
LD 50 is the dosage of any lethal drug that when given to 100 people 50 will die.
There is no LD 50 for heroin.


I'm not sure I believe that, I'm fairly confident that the lethal dose in heroin would be comparatively low to anyone who is not an addict.


You know the interesting thing is that all you have to do is look it up in the PDR and then you will know.The fun part is when you come back and call me a fucking smart ass

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 6:16:15 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
You know the interesting thing is that all you have to do is look it up in the PDR and then you will know.The fun part is when you come back and call me a fucking smart ass


Unfortunately I don't have a copy of that book but I do have the internet, which gives varying answers but does maintain that there is a lethal dose of heroin.

The LD50 for heroin is generally believed to be around a third of a gram.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_grams_of_pure_heroin_would_it_take_for_a_150_pound_man_to_over_dose

Animal experimentation:
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/bulletin/bulletin_1965-01-01_1_page006.html

Some sources give a figure of between 75 and 375 mg for a 75 kg being fatal for 50% of opiate naive people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin

I've also *seen* people overdose from heroin, as well as overdosed myself, so to be honest saying "there is no LD50" does not mean it's impossible to overdose on heroin. It's actually quite easy.

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 6:18:00 PM   
thornhappy


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Status: offline 		What's a suitable replacement crop?  I've heard that it's one of the few that'll grow in relatively poor soil and still generate enough money for the farmer (who is not making the big bucks in all this.) 

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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 6:21:13 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

What's a suitable replacement crop?  I've heard that it's one of the few that'll grow in relatively poor soil and still generate enough money for the farmer (who is not making the big bucks in all this.) 



I do not believe that there is a suitable crop to replace the poppy.  We should buy it and use it for its intended purpose.  How hard would it be to control the market?  ADM does it with soy beans.

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