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RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 4:02:54 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Submission is a state of mind brought on by deep meditation...

Sunshinemiss,

Could you explain what you mean by your reply.

Thank you,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

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Post #: 21

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 4:19:27 AM

eyesopened

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From: Tampa, FL
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To me submission isn't yielding to the will of another... but rather to yeild to the authority of another. If there is no authority that I can recognize, I am not submitting. Submission for me is a natural response to Authority. Just the way I am.

To me, service is not necessarily submission. I have always held a job that involves in some way, service to others. I like it. I am not submitting to clients. But I do everything I can to serve them. I suppose they may have some implied authority as in "the customer is always right" but I have raised two children for whom I cooked, cleaned, and 'served' but I maintained the authority over them.

_____________________________

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No one is honored for what they've received. Honor is the reward for what has been given.

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Post #: 22

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 4:39:57 AM

sunshinemiss

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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Submission is a state of mind brought on by deep meditation...

Sunshinemiss,

Could you explain what you mean by your reply.

Thank you,
heartfelt

Sure!

You know first let me say that I had a whole bunch of other stuff that I was thinking, and then I got really quiet and thought.... I feel most submissive when I have done yoga or meditated or been in a loving, open state. I feel such depth of love and oneness with the universe, that submitting to another is the most natural thing in the world. There is nothing for me to do except submit to the energy of the world, of those around me, even to my own intellect. Submission is being at one with the universe and submitting to my own nature, and not fighting it. It is about being love and being a conduit for... whatever is sent through me.

Now, I know this is kind of hokey and such, but it is actually true for me. When I meditate, it's like my brain gets a good sweeping, and then I am able to see the world and the people as they are (or at least closer to as they are)... and then it's just right.

Maybe for me to find that place of true submission (whether it is submission to my religion, submission to my asthma, submission to love), I have to clear the thoughts and the busy-ness out of my head.

I can DO an action that is submissive. Everyone DOES submission when they follow the laws of the land, follow through on their boss' (or customer's) demands, pay their taxes. I can have an emotion that is submisson (like when I'm afraid or when I just want something - that is selfish... It is about avoiding something I perceive as negative or twisting the world to my own wants.) But to get to the actual experience of a deeper sense of submission for me it is prayer, meditaiton, yoga that take me there.

It is then that I feel deep love.

Of course because I feel love for someone, it is easier to let go of my own will and to move into that state faster, easier. It is where peace lives. It's like ... when you hold a newborn baby, and you feel their diaper is wet. You just automatically submit to their needs. And you do it gladly. It is that fascination and awe of the beauty in front of you. You can't help but submit.

In the end, I took your question beyond action and feeling, and went to where I become submission. There is no fight, there is no need to exert the will. There is only harmony in the world. All things must submit in order to be in harmony with the world.

Khalil Gibran wrote the following in The Prophet:

You often say, "I would give, but only to the deserving."

The trees in your orchard say not so, nor the flocks in your pasture.

They give that they may live, for to withhold is to perish.

This somehow speaks to me of the nature of submission.

I hope this makes sense. It does somehow to me.

Best,
sunshine

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

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Post #: 23

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 5:48:39 AM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
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quote:

my question would be, does doing things that you enjoy, does that feed you as a person as much as doing something that you don't necessarily enjoy

Yes. It is the dynamic that feeds and fulfills me.. He is still the one who has the authority, the one who determines what will happen and when. I am still the one who accepts his authority.
Here s a simple example: We were watching a movie at his house and I was cold. He said he'd get me a blanket. I started to get up and said I would get the blanket. He ordered me to sit down (I did!), put his hands on his hips and asked “Who is the dominant here?” Of course the answer was that he is the dominant and he fetched the blanket because he chose to.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 24

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 7:02:40 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
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quote:

ORIGINAL: delicatelydirty

Submission is a part of me, even when I have no one to serve I am still submissive, that is what is in my heart and in my soul, my greatest pleasure comes from pleasing another, in whatever form that takes.

This has caused me issues in the past as I struggled to separate my need to please people from standing up for what is mine and the strangest thing is that since I have learnt to stand up for what is mine, my desire and need to submit has grown. But now I have a much clearer idea of the type of person to whom I can truly open up to

Thank you for your reply delicatelydirty. And i agree with you, that submission is part of who i am, i am at my core a submissive person. i too have struggled with having to learn to place boundaries for some self protection and it has also allowed me to respond more submissively to those that i have chosen to submit to because of placing boundaries elsewhere. i had more to give, more "need" to serve, etc.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

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Post #: 25

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 7:29:09 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

...May i ask when you have said that you respond submissively to everyone, it that what you are meaning, that you would follow the will of everyone...

submission is this slave's knee-jerk reaction, yes.
however, depending on the circumstance, this slave has had to make the conscious choice NOT to follow the will of whomever she happens to be around at the time. it could be because it is dangerous to this slave's continued breathing in and out...or it could be because she has made a commitment to honor and obey the will of someone else, specifically. the inclination to respond submissively is not a compulsion, unless this slave's integrity is on the line.

after reading your response to Jeff, aka Leadership527, this slave still doesn't identify with a submissive "feeling", or "more" or "less" submissive because of specific activities or directions that aren't what she would be doing if left to her own devices.

for example...this slave is not attracted to women. if Master desired for her to interact sexually with another woman, it would not give her the "feeling of submission" you allude to, just because she isn't wired to seek out or enjoy bisexual/lesbian interactions.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/29/2010 7:30:16 AM >

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Post #: 26

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 7:52:14 AM

Andalusite

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Once I discover that a specific individual person inspires a submissive reaction/response/feeling from me, I am submissive to them all of the time, but I do experience it even more intensely when they have me do things that are difficult, where I'm so very aware of yielding to their will and their authority. I can obey someone, be compliant and cooperative, without being submissive at all. Likewise, I can bottom without submitting, and back when I was playing more casually, I had to screen people very intensely for that. It's extremely awkward when someone praised me for being "so submissive" when I didn't feel that way at all - like if they were going on about how many orgasms I'd had, when I hadn't even come once.

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 27

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 8:06:11 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

To me submission isn't yielding to the will of another... but rather to yield to the authority of another. If there is no authority that I can recognize, I am not submitting. Submission for me is a natural response to Authority. Just the way I am.

To me, service is not necessarily submission. I have always held a job that involves in some way, service to others. I like it. I am not submitting to clients. But I do everything I can to serve them. I suppose they may have some implied authority as in "the customer is always right" but I have raised two children for whom I cooked, cleaned, and 'served' but I maintained the authority over them.

Eyes,

Thank you for your reply. From the second paragraph, i wholeheartedly agree with both of the bolded lines. i can and do serve lots of people, but i don't equate that with submitting to them or them having authority over me. As with you, i raised two kids who i served a great deal, but i maintained authority over them.

And maybe that is part of the disconnect in my head, so much of what would be classified as acts of submission, are in my mind more acts of service which i don't equate as submission or yielding to his authority, so it is only when i have to make a conscious choice to do an action that i wouldn't normally do, that i get the sense that i am actually submitting to his authority.

Thank you for your reply.
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to eyesopened)

Post #: 28

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 8:17:40 AM

heartfeltsub

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Joined: 11/5/2004
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Sunshinemiss,

Thank you for answering my question. And for giving me an insight to your thinking.

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 29

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 8:22:33 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

...May i ask when you have said that you respond submissively to everyone, it that what you are meaning, that you would follow the will of everyone...

submission is this slave's knee-jerk reaction, yes.
however, depending on the circumstance, this slave has had to make the conscious choice NOT to follow the will of whomever she happens to be around at the time. it could be because it is dangerous to this slave's continued breathing in and out...or it could be because she has made a commitment to honor and obey the will of someone else, specifically. the inclination to respond submissively is not a compulsion, unless this slave's integrity is on the line.

after reading your response to Jeff, aka Leadership527, this slave still doesn't identify with a submissive "feeling", or "more" or "less" submissive because of specific activities or directions that aren't what she would be doing if left to her own devices.

for example...this slave is not attracted to women. if Master desired for her to interact sexually with another woman, it would not give her the "feeling of submission" you allude to, just because she isn't wired to seek out or enjoy bisexual/lesbian interactions.

Beth,

Thank you for answering my question. The portion of the last two paragraphs are very interesting to me. Some actions, the actions that are outside my wiring, do cause me to feel his authority over me, or my "place" in the dynamic in a greater sense. Not feeling that, is something that i find interesting, but i won't ask you why the difference.

Thank you again for reading some of the other posts and answering the question that i asked you.

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 30

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 8:35:22 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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I have zero interest in deliberately made to feel distress in order to prove to him that I was a true submissive. More than that, I would judge a man who does that as someone I could not respect. Just as dominants don't want a sub who constantly tests them, I don't want a dominant who constantly tests me. And that's what I view it as, a test. A version of a high school boy who says if you really loved me you would have sex with me. My answer now is what it should be to all high school girls, okay then, how about you prove you love me by not whining about this and not demanding this.

I got around this by finding someone who I am extremely compatible with. I tolerate him watching all those police investigation shows. I won't watch special victims, but I will watch NCIS because it's less visceral when it shows the crimes. If he wants to watch something that shows children being hurt or people being tortured I leave the room. Because it not only causes me emotional distress to watch it, it prevents me from sleeping. If he insisted I prove I love him by causing sleep deprivation, I'd have to conclude his alleged love for me was totally selfish with no care about my health.

But it is no less submission when he says we're going out for ice cream than when he says he needs me to do a laundry immediately. Because it's his decision.

Actually I view the being forced to do stuff that distresses you not as dominance, but as an expression of sadism. And people who only feel submissive when in distress are actually expressing some masochism. Since he isn't a sadist, and I'm not a masochist, we don't go there.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 31

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 9:21:10 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Once I discover that a specific individual person inspires a submissive reaction/response/feeling from me, I am submissive to them all of the time, but I do experience it even more intensely when they have me do things that are difficult, where I'm so very aware of yielding to their will and their authority. I can obey someone, be compliant and cooperative, without being submissive at all. Likewise, I can bottom without submitting, and back when I was playing more casually, I had to screen people very intensely for that. It's extremely awkward when someone praised me for being "so submissive" when I didn't feel that way at all - like if they were going on about how many orgasms I'd had, when I hadn't even come once.

Again exactly what i was trying to describe (in the bolded part). Although i don't think that i described it well. i also can be compliant and cooperative, like with a police officer, but i am not sure if that wouldn't also be submitting to their authority, it doesn't give me the same internal reaction is all.

Thank you Andalusite for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to Andalusite)

Post #: 32

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 9:31:24 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I have zero interest in deliberately made to feel distress in order to prove to him that I was a true submissive. More than that, I would judge a man who does that as someone I could not respect. Just as dominants don't want a sub who constantly tests them, I don't want a dominant who constantly tests me. And that's what I view it as, a test. A version of a high school boy who says if you really loved me you would have sex with me. My answer now is what it should be to all high school girls, okay then, how about you prove you love me by not whining about this and not demanding this.

I got around this by finding someone who I am extremely compatible with. I tolerate him watching all those police investigation shows. I won't watch special victims, but I will watch NCIS because it's less visceral when it shows the crimes. If he wants to watch something that shows children being hurt or people being tortured I leave the room. Because it not only causes me emotional distress to watch it, it prevents me from sleeping. If he insisted I prove I love him by causing sleep deprivation, I'd have to conclude his alleged love for me was totally selfish with no care about my health.

But it is no less submission when he says we're going out for ice cream than when he says he needs me to do a laundry immediately. Because it's his decision.

Actually I view the being forced to do stuff that distresses you not as dominance, but as an expression of sadism. And people who only feel submissive when in distress are actually expressing some masochism. Since he isn't a sadist, and I'm not a masochist, we don't go there.

Celeste,

Thank you for your reply, however if constant testing is what my initial post indicated, i really did a worse job than i thought with my initial post because that is NOT at all what i intended to say or how i intended for it to come across. Or being asked to do something just because it is difficult.

What i meant was more like was something that might even be construed as an inconvenience, like getting up to let the pets out after already being in bed because he asked me to. No test involved, just the pets needed to be let out and he didn't want to do it, so he had me do it. Not trying to prove his Dominance, just actually being Dominant. It isn't a matter of me having to prove i am a "true" submissive, it is a matter of me actually submitting my will to his, my will would be to stay in the warm bed, if left to my own devices, but his will is that i let the pets out.

If anyone actually played the prove you are a "true" submissive card, i wouldn't be in a D/s or M/s relationship with them. So that was NOT what i was trying to portray at all and i apologize if that is what came across.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 33

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 10:05:20 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
Thank you for your reply, to address the part that i bolded in black when i am describing feeling submissive, i think i am not making good use of my words. What i am describing as feeling submissive might be better put as i know that am being pleasing, similar to what you described Carol feeling. But for me it goes beyond that, i know that i am submitting to his will

*nods* The first part of the question is where you and Carol are alike. The second part is the part she could not connect with. As is always true, there is no right or wrong here, no better or worse. There is only your experience and hers and whatever insight may be gained by looking at the differences.

I'm beginning to wonder if you've asked the right question here heartfelt. Honestly, the simple scientific answer to your question is, "it's the following of orders". I'm wondering if a better question would've been "Why do you submit?" I suspect the answer to that one is as varied as there are humans. For Carol, I'd have to answer in a 2 part answer.

She is my submissive because that is the way she views the world. There is no other reason for it. Her entire worldview and all of her social interactions... not just with me, but with everyone... is viewed through that lens. This is why she doesn't have any "feeling" related to submission. As my friend once noted, "Trying to talk to Carol about submission is like trying to talk to a fish about water -- it's just invisible to her." The fish does not give a lot of thought to the question, "Why do I swim?" and unless there's enough of an irritant in the water, it doesn't give any thought to "How does it feel to swim?".

She is my slave because that's what pleases me. That level of submission is not natural for her... but the desire to please me is. She derives pleasure from the "being pleasing" part. The degree of submission that is required for that is an "irritant in the water" that she would happily do without. For Carol, her desire to be pleasing is way stronger than her desire to submit, as has been shown in recent experiences.

In an odd twist of events, I actually think that you and I are more alike in this aspect than you and Carol. I personally can sympathize with that connection to the authority dynamic. I get it when I feel like she is my slave. Carol does not connect with it at all.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 34

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 10:47:41 AM

heartfeltsub

Posts: 1641
Joined: 11/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

She is my submissive because that is the way she views the world. There is no other reason for it. Her entire worldview and all of her social interactions... not just with me, but with everyone... is viewed through that lens. This is why she doesn't have any "feeling" related to submission. As my friend once noted, "Trying to talk to Carol about submission is like trying to talk to a fish about water -- it's just invisible to her." The fish does not give a lot of thought to the question, "Why do I swim?" and unless there's enough of an irritant in the water, it doesn't give any thought to "How does it feel to swim?".

She is my slave because that's what pleases me. That level of submission is not natural for her... but the desire to please me is. She derives pleasure from the "being pleasing" part. The degree of submission that is required for that is an "irritant in the water" that she would happily do without. For Carol, her desire to be pleasing is way stronger than her desire to submit, as has been shown in recent experiences.

In an odd twist of events, I actually think that you and I are more alike in this aspect than you and Carol. I personally can sympathize with that connection to the authority dynamic. I get it when I feel like she is my slave. Carol does not connect with it at all.

*snipped for brevity sake

Leadership,

Thank you so much for your reply. Wow what a great analogy (in the bolded part). Because i have had to train myself not to respond submissively all the time, because i was ending up hurt by doing so, i can actually feel the irritant in the water when i am submitting. The how does it feel to swim. Because i am a submissive by personality and have only trained myself to not make that my default response to everyone/everywhere, not many things make me feel the irritant in the water, i am just swimming and i swim because that is who i am. Wow, can't tell you how much that helps.

Thank you again for your reply,
heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 35

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 1:16:07 PM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

Hello heartfelt.

I have read what you have written. Something that popped up to me is this which you wrote to Leadership.

quote:

To address the part that i bolded in green, that is exactly what i am talking about but from an s-types prespective. i am not looking for constant pain and pushing, but obedience that is always easy for me, doesn't feed me as much as having to do some things that are hard, that may cause me a wee bit of emotional pain. It reinforces for me the dynamic of the relationship.

Do you identify as a masochist as well as slave/submissive?

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Post #: 36

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 1:24:07 PM

heartfeltsub

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Joined: 11/5/2004
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To a degree, yes there is some masochism in me. i don't identify as a heavy duty masochist, but there is some level of masochism in there. Are you saying that that is why i need some things that are hard to "feel like i am actually submitting"? Interesting thought

Thank you for the reply, dark.

heartfelt

_____________________________

Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others.

Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood.

Life is either a great adventure or nothing.

Helen Keller

50 NZ points

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 37

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 1:46:12 PM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

To a degree, yes there is some masochism in me. i don't identify as a heavy duty masochist, but there is some level of masochism in there. Are you saying that that is why i need some things that are hard to "feel like i am actually submitting"? Interesting thought

Thank you for the reply, dark.

heartfelt

It definately crossed my mind heartfelt and it might offer something to think about?
I am not masochistic at all - not even a little. So when I do something that Master instructs that I would not choose to do automatically, I don't have any sense of fulfilment because it's difficult or painful in anyway. I am fulfiled because I am under his authority. Submission isn't a feeling to me, it's a reaction to the authority that Master has. I cannot chose it to occur, it just does. I can however choose to give into it. I don't know if that makes any sense?

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

Post #: 38

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 2:17:25 PM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

"What is "submission"?

You have to ask?

_____________________________

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I give good thread.

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Post #: 39

RE: What is "submission"? - 3/29/2010 2:21:51 PM

blueeyedbbwsub

Posts: 435
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline

Being submissive has plagued me my entire life. Chosing to become A submissive and accepting that this is who I am naturally made so much more sense and brought joy back into my life. When I first saw a description over 6 yrs ago is when my life finally started to make sense to me. It explained a lot of past behavior and I fell into the role (OK, not the best choice of words, but yanno?) on my own.

I still have the very bad habit of not speaking my mind. Especially with "friends" who take advantage of my good-hearted nature. I then become sick and tired of their behavior and just let things die a not so natural death. I also learned at the very beginning that because I was submissive I did not have to act submissive to those who thought I should. I answered to one man, and no one else. That does not mean that I have stopped helping others, or that I had to give in to anyone who thought I should. OOO doom on them.

i can be quite the smart-ass, i proudly wear that badge when I deem it necessary, but never to the man who would consider me his.

Now before anyone gets their panties or briefs or boxers in a knot.. Yes, I am submissive. Yes I do comply. I am not knocking "being a submissive", after all, I am one. I object to my past where I was taken advantage of because of my submissive nature. That and many asstards who chose to take advantage, and in which I willfully participated.

OK, don't know if this makes sense or not, but it does to me. And this is my opinion only, not looking for a flame out. I manage to flame myself out enough each and every day.

No flames were harmed in the writing of this post.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 40

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