RE: Which America? (Full Version)

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popeye1250 -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 5:43:23 PM)

I was out earlier in Conway looking at the new Mercedes "S" class at a dealorship when in the opposite direction goes an old 1960's VW lime green bus with a white "peace sign" on the front of it and I thought to myself; "Hey! There goes Mike!!!"




slvemike4u -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 7:01:38 PM)

Fuck you pops....I wouldn't be caught dead in a VW bus....I came of age in the 70's not the 60's....lol.




thornhappy -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 7:25:54 PM)

I do find this interesting, because a vowed technique of folks like Gingrich, Norquist, et al was to run the government into deficit, thereby "starving the beast" and inhibiting any growth in spending, no matter what was needed.

And of course, absolutely no new taxes (see Norquist's Club For Growth - he demands pledges from all Republicans that they will never raise taxes.)
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


They want the deficit reduced, primarily. The only reason Obama's a focal point is that he seems to be deliberately trying to make the deficits so high that they destroy us. Wether its deliberate or not is hard to say but thats the way we are headed, to deficits that are so bad that there will be no choice other than to default on our debt, much like Greece.

All the partisan hype you're hearing from the left about how hateful they are or how radical they are is pure bull. This is all about the deficits, first and foremost.





Sanity -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 7:30:23 PM)


I really, seriously  doubt you can link Newt Gingrich to any kind of crazy spend till we implode policy, like Obama's.

I think someone's feeding you a line of bs, or you're pulling that out of your nether region.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

I do find this interesting, because a vowed technique of folks like Gingrich, Norquist, et al was to run the government into deficit, thereby "starving the beast" and inhibiting any growth in spending, no matter what was needed.

And of course, absolutely no new taxes (see Norquist's Club For Growth - he demands pledges from all Republicans that they will never raise taxes.)




slvemike4u -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 7:36:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


I really, seriously  doubt you can link Newt Gingrich to any kind of crazy spend till we implode policy, like Obama's.

I think someone's feeding you a line of bs, or you're pulling that out of your nether region.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

I do find this interesting, because a vowed technique of folks like Gingrich, Norquist, et al was to run the government into deficit, thereby "starving the beast" and inhibiting any growth in spending, no matter what was needed.

And of course, absolutely no new taxes (see Norquist's Club For Growth - he demands pledges from all Republicans that they will never raise taxes.)

Wow,you and Obama being simpatico ended quick!(that was you claiming President Obama is starting to see things your way on the oil thread...wasn't it?)




Musicmystery -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 7:38:03 PM)

http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Newt+Gingrich+starve+the+beast&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8




Sanity -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 7:44:06 PM)


I wrote that he's beginning to see a lot of things my way but he's still green and naive, and still has a long way to go.


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4uWow,you and Obama being simpatico ended quick!(that was you claiming President Obama is starting to see things your way on the oil thread...wasn't it?)




thornhappy -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 7:51:01 PM)

Riiiiiiiight.  "Starve the beast" has been a popular cry since the Clinton administration.

What, exactly, would you do to decrease the deficit?  How would you finance the 2 wars we're running on credit?  Would you have tried to prop up the financial system, or just let the whole thing collapse?

I see lots of fear and anger in the Tea Party movement, lots of sound and fury, but no solutions.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


I really, seriously  doubt you can link Newt Gingrich to any kind of crazy spend till we implode policy, like Obama's.

I think someone's feeding you a line of bs, or you're pulling that out of your nether region.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

I do find this interesting, because a vowed technique of folks like Gingrich, Norquist, et al was to run the government into deficit, thereby "starving the beast" and inhibiting any growth in spending, no matter what was needed.

And of course, absolutely no new taxes (see Norquist's Club For Growth - he demands pledges from all Republicans that they will never raise taxes.)





slvemike4u -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 7:53:13 PM)

Oh Sanity for sure ,I never meant to suggest you were ready to sign up with the Committee to Re-Elect the President.....lol. [:D]




Musicmystery -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 7:54:05 PM)

quote:

"Starve the beast" has been a popular cry since the Clinton administration.


No. Since the Reagan administration.

Newt revived it.




Sanity -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 7:54:08 PM)


One of the blogs that comes up has this little blurb in it:

quote:

Thus, using tax cuts to bring about spending cuts has been called “starving the beast.”


Tax cuts - to bring about spending cuts. Nothing advocating  any runaway, reckless spending, and nothing suggesting that Newt called for the kind of insane policy we
see in Washington today of spending trillions and trillions that we don't have like theres no tomorrow.




Musicmystery -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 7:57:34 PM)

That's kinda selective, don't you think? Here, I'll help you--


"My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years," Reagan Revolutionary Grover Norquist boasted, "to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub." Now, a generation after Norquist launched his crusade, Republican White House hopefuls Newt Gingrich and Tim Pawlenty are leading a new charge to "starve the beast." Even as these Republicans call for new Treasury-draining tax cuts, they are resurrecting a bad idea whose time never came: a balanced budget amendment to the United States Constitution.

While conveniently ignoring the supply-side snake oil which tripled the national debt under Ronald Reagan and doubled it again under George W. Bush, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich warned that "Washington's total disregard for fiscal discipline has jeopardized America's moral, political and economic authority within the world community." His solution to save the "foundation of personal and economic liberty upon which our nation is built" is the balanced budget amendment:

Since members of Congress has given no indication that they intend to alter their behavior, reject unbridled spending and return to the traditions of fiscal restraint, we believe that there is little likelihood that they will propose an amendment. As a result, the American people must act. Let us begin by calling upon every member of Congress and every candidate seeking office to commit to voting for a Federal Balanced Budget Amendment immediately. By raising a united voice in every district in every state in America, we can build the political will for Congress to act.

If Gingrich's litmus test for candidates sounds familiar, it should.

In 1992 and again in 1995, Republicans in the House and Senate narrowly failed in their first effort to drown government in a bathtub through a balanced budget amendment. Clinton Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, no wild-eyed liberal by any stretch of the imagination, warned Congress that the GOP gambit would be ''a terrible mistake'' that would pose ''unacceptable economic risks to the nation.'' As the New York Times recalled in 1997:

In his testimony on Friday, Mr. Rubin said he would stress that if the amendment was in force, an economic downturn could quickly ''turn into a recession, and a recession into something worse.''

''The problem is that if the nation does in fact get into a recession,'' he said, ''we now have automatic stabilizers that go into effect that can increase demand in the government sector to offset declines in the private sector. What the balanced budget amendment would require is that during a recession we would have to raise taxes or cut spending to put ourselves back in balance. And that could exacerbate the recession.''

Of course, not a single Republican voted for Clinton's 1993 deficit reduction package, which along with a booming economy helped produce balanced budgets and a CBO-projected $5.6 trillion surplus by 2001. Nevertheless, Newt Gingrich like other of his GOP colleagues gave the Republican Congress credit for it:

Despite not passing the constitutional amendment in 1995, the Congress passed balanced budgets for four years, paid off $405 billion in debt and had the lowest spending growth - 2.9% - since President Calvin Coolidge.

As it turns out, Newt Gingrich is far from alone in Republican circles in advocating the balanced budget amendment. In Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty, Gingrich has company even among the fraternity of Republican presidential wannabes.

In recent weeks Governor Pawlenty exhumed the stinking corpse of the balanced budget amendment to fight the deficit. For example, in a February 1, 2010 Politico op-ed ("Ponzi Scheme on the Potomac"), Pawlenty tried to reanimated the dead:

That's why we need an amendment to the U.S. Constitution to require a balanced budget with limited exceptions for war, natural disasters and other emergencies. Every state but one has a balanced budget requirement, and while such requirements make for difficult decisions, they work.

(Of course, those decisions are a lot less difficult when the federal government subsidizes state budgets like the one in stimulus critic Pawlenty's Minnesota. Facing a $1.2 billion budget deficit, Pawlenty has proposed slashing health care coverage, education funding and aid to municipalities. Still, to fully close the gap, Pawlenty's proposal relies on $387 million in stimulus funds from Washington.)

Without ever detailing how he would cut spending, Pawlenty made clear that new revenue from tax increases of any sort was off the table in his budget balancing calculus. Instead, he wrote:

"Lawmakers should support policies that promote economic growth. For example, the Bush tax cuts should be made permanent and tax burdens on individuals and businesses should be further reduced."

And as he outlined to Fox News' Stuart Varney in July, Newt Gingrich would go much further in slashing taxes of almost every stripe. Not only would he also make the Bush tax cuts permanent, Gingrich declared:

"We need a real stimulus bill. And here's the challenge. A real stimulus bill would have a 50 percent reduction in the Social Security and Medicare tax, including the employers' match, so that every small business in America could hire more people and could grow faster.

A real stimulus free market bill would have a zero capital gains rate, like China, would have a 12.5 corporate tax rate, like Ireland, would eliminate the death tax, which 80 percent of the American people want.

That would be a real stimulus bill...

So, I think - I think frankly, Republicans ought to take up willingly the idea of, let's pass a real stimulus bill, cut - take all the money that has not been spent so far, which is about $500 billion of that stimulus package, convert that tax cuts for the private sector...to help small businesses."

Among Congressional Republicans, including supposed deficit hawks like John McCain, John Boehner and Judd Gregg, the appetite for tax cuts is insatiable. For his part, McCain voted against the deficit commission legislation once sponsored, declaring:

"I want a spending commission, and I worry that this commission could have gotten together and agreed to increase taxes. Spending cuts are what we need. We don't need to raise taxes."

Of course, the Republicans' fuzzy math would lead to a fiscal calamity, necessarily gutting government spending including popular programs they claim to support. While Tim Pawlenty insisted, "I don't think anybody's gonna go back now and say, 'Let's abolish, or reduce, Medicare and Medicaid,'" a quick look at the numbers raises the question:

Just where would Republicans make their constitutionally-mandated cuts?

President Obama's proposed $3.8 trillion budget for 2011 is forecast to produce a $1.3 trillion deficit (down from $1.6 trillion in 2010). National defense and Social Security each come in at $738 billion. Medicare totals $498 billion, while Medicaid and other health care services add $260 billion and $25 billion, respectively. Throw in the required $251 billion in required interest payments on the national debt, and those portions alone of Washington's bill total over $2.5 trillion. Meanwhile, given that the Bush tax cuts accounted for half of the deficits during his tenure and more than half over the next decade, the Obama budget rightly calls for letting the Bush tax cuts expire for Americans earning over $250,000. (Click the chart below to use the New York Times interactive graphic.)

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/02/01/us/budget.html





Sanity -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 8:05:14 PM)


Theres a lot we can do to cut spending but its late for me and thats a good topic for its own thread. I will say here that either we cut spending or our creditors will  be forced to intervene. We can do it the hard way or the easy way, and at the moment thats our choice.

Thadius started a thread (which a lot of you are conveniently ignoring) that talks about the CBO predicting that the Obama deficits are headed towards 90% of the GDP, which that kind of debt is universally recognized as being unsustainable. Think of the interest alone... and this is all on our grandkids' heads.

Its unconscionable that we're doing this to them.


[image]http://www.moonbattery.com/assets_c/2010/03/26947_382612112091_501387091_3722159_1429837_n-thumb-500x661-1436.jpg[/image]
quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Riiiiiiiight.  "Starve the beast" has been a popular cry since the Clinton administration.

What, exactly, would you do to decrease the deficit?  How would you finance the 2 wars we're running on credit?  Would you have tried to prop up the financial system, or just let the whole thing collapse?

I see lots of fear and anger in the Tea Party movement, lots of sound and fury, but no solutions.




Musicmystery -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 8:09:59 PM)

Well, now that Obama's coming around to your way of thinking (who knows...three more years...) and you're distancing yourself from Republicans like Newt running for President, maybe you'll be voting for four more years.

[:D]




Sanity -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 8:16:35 PM)


I had to be selective muse, you linked to all of Google.

And this is slimy slanted article, typical of the New York Times, but still nothing in it that suggests Newt Gingrich was ever for massive government spending, as thornhappy tried to assert.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's kinda selective, don't you think? Here, I'll help you--


"My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years," Reagan Revolutionary Grover Norquist boasted, "to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub." Now, a generation after Norquist launched his crusade, Republican White House hopefuls Newt Gingrich and Tim Pawlenty are leading a new charge to "starve the beast." Even as these Republicans call for new Treasury-draining tax cuts, they are resurrecting a bad idea whose time never came: a balanced budget amendment to the United States Constitution.

While conveniently ignoring the supply-side snake oil which tripled the national debt under Ronald Reagan and doubled it again under George W. Bush, former House Speaker Newt Gingrich warned that "Washington's total disregard for fiscal discipline has jeopardized America's moral, political and economic authority within the world community." His solution to save the "foundation of personal and economic liberty upon which our nation is built" is the balanced budget amendment:

Since members of Congress has given no indication that they intend to alter their behavior, reject unbridled spending and return to the traditions of fiscal restraint, we believe that there is little likelihood that they will propose an amendment. As a result, the American people must act. Let us begin by calling upon every member of Congress and every candidate seeking office to commit to voting for a Federal Balanced Budget Amendment immediately. By raising a united voice in every district in every state in America, we can build the political will for Congress to act.

If Gingrich's litmus test for candidates sounds familiar, it should.

In 1992 and again in 1995, Republicans in the House and Senate narrowly failed in their first effort to drown government in a bathtub through a balanced budget amendment. Clinton Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, no wild-eyed liberal by any stretch of the imagination, warned Congress that the GOP gambit would be ''a terrible mistake'' that would pose ''unacceptable economic risks to the nation.'' As the New York Times recalled in 1997:

In his testimony on Friday, Mr. Rubin said he would stress that if the amendment was in force, an economic downturn could quickly ''turn into a recession, and a recession into something worse.''

''The problem is that if the nation does in fact get into a recession,'' he said, ''we now have automatic stabilizers that go into effect that can increase demand in the government sector to offset declines in the private sector. What the balanced budget amendment would require is that during a recession we would have to raise taxes or cut spending to put ourselves back in balance. And that could exacerbate the recession.''

Of course, not a single Republican voted for Clinton's 1993 deficit reduction package, which along with a booming economy helped produce balanced budgets and a CBO-projected $5.6 trillion surplus by 2001. Nevertheless, Newt Gingrich like other of his GOP colleagues gave the Republican Congress credit for it:

Despite not passing the constitutional amendment in 1995, the Congress passed balanced budgets for four years, paid off $405 billion in debt and had the lowest spending growth - 2.9% - since President Calvin Coolidge.

As it turns out, Newt Gingrich is far from alone in Republican circles in advocating the balanced budget amendment. In Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty, Gingrich has company even among the fraternity of Republican presidential wannabes.

In recent weeks Governor Pawlenty exhumed the stinking corpse of the balanced budget amendment to fight the deficit. For example, in a February 1, 2010 Politico op-ed ("Ponzi Scheme on the Potomac"), Pawlenty tried to reanimated the dead:

That's why we need an amendment to the U.S. Constitution to require a balanced budget with limited exceptions for war, natural disasters and other emergencies. Every state but one has a balanced budget requirement, and while such requirements make for difficult decisions, they work.

(Of course, those decisions are a lot less difficult when the federal government subsidizes state budgets like the one in stimulus critic Pawlenty's Minnesota. Facing a $1.2 billion budget deficit, Pawlenty has proposed slashing health care coverage, education funding and aid to municipalities. Still, to fully close the gap, Pawlenty's proposal relies on $387 million in stimulus funds from Washington.)

Without ever detailing how he would cut spending, Pawlenty made clear that new revenue from tax increases of any sort was off the table in his budget balancing calculus. Instead, he wrote:

"Lawmakers should support policies that promote economic growth. For example, the Bush tax cuts should be made permanent and tax burdens on individuals and businesses should be further reduced."

And as he outlined to Fox News' Stuart Varney in July, Newt Gingrich would go much further in slashing taxes of almost every stripe. Not only would he also make the Bush tax cuts permanent, Gingrich declared:

"We need a real stimulus bill. And here's the challenge. A real stimulus bill would have a 50 percent reduction in the Social Security and Medicare tax, including the employers' match, so that every small business in America could hire more people and could grow faster.

A real stimulus free market bill would have a zero capital gains rate, like China, would have a 12.5 corporate tax rate, like Ireland, would eliminate the death tax, which 80 percent of the American people want.

That would be a real stimulus bill...

So, I think - I think frankly, Republicans ought to take up willingly the idea of, let's pass a real stimulus bill, cut - take all the money that has not been spent so far, which is about $500 billion of that stimulus package, convert that tax cuts for the private sector...to help small businesses."

Among Congressional Republicans, including supposed deficit hawks like John McCain, John Boehner and Judd Gregg, the appetite for tax cuts is insatiable. For his part, McCain voted against the deficit commission legislation once sponsored, declaring:

"I want a spending commission, and I worry that this commission could have gotten together and agreed to increase taxes. Spending cuts are what we need. We don't need to raise taxes."

Of course, the Republicans' fuzzy math would lead to a fiscal calamity, necessarily gutting government spending including popular programs they claim to support. While Tim Pawlenty insisted, "I don't think anybody's gonna go back now and say, 'Let's abolish, or reduce, Medicare and Medicaid,'" a quick look at the numbers raises the question:

Just where would Republicans make their constitutionally-mandated cuts?

President Obama's proposed $3.8 trillion budget for 2011 is forecast to produce a $1.3 trillion deficit (down from $1.6 trillion in 2010). National defense and Social Security each come in at $738 billion. Medicare totals $498 billion, while Medicaid and other health care services add $260 billion and $25 billion, respectively. Throw in the required $251 billion in required interest payments on the national debt, and those portions alone of Washington's bill total over $2.5 trillion. Meanwhile, given that the Bush tax cuts accounted for half of the deficits during his tenure and more than half over the next decade, the Obama budget rightly calls for letting the Bush tax cuts expire for Americans earning over $250,000. (Click the chart below to use the New York Times interactive graphic.)

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/02/01/us/budget.html






Musicmystery -> RE: Which America? (3/31/2010 8:23:10 PM)

quote:

nothing in it that suggests Newt Gingrich was ever for massive government spending, as thornhappy tried to assert

No, her point was:
quote:

I do find this interesting, because a vowed technique of folks like Gingrich, Norquist, et al was to run the government into deficit, thereby "starving the beast" and inhibiting any growth in spending, no matter what was needed.

And of course, absolutely no new taxes (see Norquist's Club For Growth - he demands pledges from all Republicans that they will never raise taxes.)

...which in fact the article supports (regardless of tone) factually, despite your claim that
quote:

I really, seriously doubt you can link Newt Gingrich to any kind of crazy spend till we implode policy, like Obama's.

I think someone's feeding you a line of bs, or you're pulling that out of your nether region.


In short, she's got you on this one.




eyesopened -> RE: Which America? (4/1/2010 2:45:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

If the subject is rising deficits and she is asking how those that are saying as a party or a coalition tha we need to lower them have demonstrated their domain of this in the past, so as to judge how they might fare in the future, it is hardly red herring, it is decidedly on topic.

Ron


And he still did not answer the questions, simple as they were. Just disappeared then reappeared, pretending they did not exist.



That's okay LaTigresse.  Merc didn't address any of my questions at all.  No doubt I am too insignificant. 




rulemylife -> RE: Which America? (4/1/2010 3:08:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


I wrote that he's beginning to see a lot of things my way but he's still green and naive, and still has a long way to go.


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4uWow,you and Obama being simpatico ended quick!(that was you claiming President Obama is starting to see things your way on the oil thread...wasn't it?)



Yes, if only he had your experience in government we could set the country straight.




Real0ne -> RE: Which America? (4/1/2010 3:17:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Riiiiiiiight.  "Starve the beast" has been a popular cry since the Clinton administration.

What, exactly, would you do to decrease the deficit?  How would you finance the 2 wars we're running on credit?  Would you have tried to prop up the financial system, or just let the whole thing collapse?

I see lots of fear and anger in the Tea Party movement, lots of sound and fury, but no solutions.


you know that is a really good question.

How do ya keep spending and reduce the deficit?

Do you ever hear your own words?




Sanity -> RE: Which America? (4/1/2010 3:40:46 AM)


No, if by "run the government into deficit" she simply meant cut taxes and call for spending cuts and a smaller, less intrusive government then she wasn't saying anything at all because thats what all fiscal conservatives want. Thats like saying water's wet.

Thats what I want, and I'm proud to say so.

What she was trying to suggest is that Newt Gingrich wanted to spend the country into its own demise, which as I said is bs. She was trying to make Obama's current insanity seem more appealing by saying that everybody (even Newt Gingrich) is doing it.

No, everybody is not doing it, because its madness. The current spending levels are unsustainable, if it doesn't ruin us completely it will still cause terrible crisis eventually.

Hillary Clinton is calling our deficits a threat to national security! This is serious, and deflecting and trying to say others in the past did it and make it okay is just enabling the spending junkie (Washington). 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

nothing in it that suggests Newt Gingrich was ever for massive government spending, as thornhappy tried to assert

No, her point was:
quote:

I do find this interesting, because a vowed technique of folks like Gingrich, Norquist, et al was to run the government into deficit, thereby "starving the beast" and inhibiting any growth in spending, no matter what was needed.

And of course, absolutely no new taxes (see Norquist's Club For Growth - he demands pledges from all Republicans that they will never raise taxes.)

...which in fact the article supports (regardless of tone) factually, despite your claim that
quote:

I really, seriously doubt you can link Newt Gingrich to any kind of crazy spend till we implode policy, like Obama's.

I think someone's feeding you a line of bs, or you're pulling that out of your nether region.


In short, she's got you on this one.




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