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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 9:39:08 AM   
Jack45


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
None of that will be rolled back


The future has yet to be written...

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 9:49:57 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack45

The Rage Is Not About Health Care The New York Times March 27 2010 Frank Rich
quote:

they want to take the country back…They can’t. Demographics are avatars of a change bigger than any bill contemplated by Obama or Congress. The week before the health care vote, The Times reported that births to Asian, black and Hispanic women accounted for 48 percent of all births in America in the 12 months ending in July 2008. By 2012, the next presidential election year, non-Hispanic white births will be in the minority.


There you happy now?



The funny thing is, each time one of us evil liberal bastard laughs in the face of the Tea Party for being a reactionary, racist, xenophobic and jingoistic movement, one of the movement's faithful follower assures us that we're unfair, intolerant lefties.

Thank you for confirming that we are, indeed, righteously correct in our assessment of the mass hysteria :-) .

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 9:53:02 AM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Agreed, and those days will not return. Especially since now, most people are resting on their asses awaiting for entitlements funded by those trying, against the tide, to succeed under present conditions set up, and being expanded, to encumber their efforts.


Do you really believe this? Most people are resting on their asses waiting for entitlements?

Only you and a few others are working, striving, against the tide, etc.?

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 9:54:19 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol



The funny thing is, each time one of us evil liberal bastard laughs in the face of the Tea Party for being a reactionary, racist, xenophobic and jingoistic movement, one of the movement's faithful follower assures us that we're unfair, intolerant lefties.

Thank you for confirming that we are, indeed, righteously correct in our assessment of the mass hysteria :-) .


Just a slight correction.

I believe they prefer to be called Teabaggers.

All that sexual innuendo gets them HAWT.

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 9:57:18 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Do you really believe this? Most people are resting on their asses waiting for entitlements?

Only you and a few others are working, striving, against the tide, etc.?


Merc belongs to the victimized class, slaving for the entitled .

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 10:01:16 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

I believe they prefer to be called Teabaggers.

All that sexual innuendo gets them HAWT.


I call them "the Lipton Yellows". Teabagging is an immoral activity that should be rendered illegal, like Freedom, the Flag, and Faggotry.

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 10:08:34 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
One where the first resort people look to solve their personal issues isn't the government.
One where the government doesn't employ and have union contracts 30% of the workforce
One where personal accountability and consequences for decisions reside with the individual.
One where failure is allowed to happen and isn't funded with the efforts and product of the successful.
One where where charity is not a government function.
One where personal choice isn't a one issue slogan.
One where contracts replace laws prohibiting, or allowing individuals to live, love, and partner with whomever and as many they choose.
One where the religion industry is taxed like any other industry.
One where taxes are based on what you spend and not what you earn.
One where equality isn't attempted by implementing laws which, by definition, make some people 'more equal' than others.

Many people see 'America' fading because they see their ability to make personal decisions fading, replaced by government dictates. They want government off their backs, but at the same time they have become comfortable with their personal entitlements and have great difficulty combining those two concepts. Too much indoctrination and political correctness in the last two generations of students may have eliminated fundamental personal accountability from the thought process from many 'Americans'; but that's my opinion only.

No - my 'America' doesn't exist and maybe never has - but that's the place I seek to live, and will stipulate to never finding.


My America would be a place where people learned to state their opinion with far fewer words.


Then again - you exemplify not having anything to say - yet you still manage to waste a sentence.

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 10:18:47 AM   
subtee


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But is it hyperbole, or does he really believe it?

It seems to me eyesopened has asked some good questions:

quote:

I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. As such, I have not always put money or personal finances as the most important aspect of my life. As I grow older I'm finding that I need things or will need things like Social Security, Medicare, or at very least affordable health insurance. I've recently been diagnosed with a condition that might cause me to stop working and to stop working before I can collect my tiny pension and any SS that might be available to me. I have reason now to wonder what would happen to me.

But the Tea Party and Republicans keep talking about taking back America, and "the America I knew" and other buzz-words and talking-points that I simply do not understand.

Which America are we to take back? What America did Glenn Beck once have that he doesn't have now?

What do they want? Really. What do they want? What will get them to shut up and be happy?

I get the impression that they want anyone who is not really clever, really intelligent, really wall-street savy to perhaps just mow lawns until they are wall-street savy? I am serious now. What do they want? What is the great vision of the future they have? What will that future look like? How will it work? Is there any place for a person like me in that vision of the future? If you can't tell me, at least direct me to someplace where I can see this vision for myself.

Anyone?


I watched a biography of Iris Murdoch; fascinating woman who loved thoughts and words. Her life ended horribly with Alzheimer's. It's just stayed with me and I worry about so many Boomers who will face this and other health issues. We've fragmented ourselves away from our families. We don't want our children to care for us. We don't want to burden someone else.

What will all the Boomers do? What do you (anyone) believe should happen?

Edit to add: I bolded the bolded parts and edit to fix quotes.




< Message edited by subtee -- 3/30/2010 10:19:57 AM >


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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 10:24:19 AM   
kittinSol


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They want a Republican in the Oval Office, preferably a white one.
They want immigrants to stop having babies.
They want to suck on the tit of Medicare and Social Security.
They don't want everyone to have health insurance, on the other hand.
They want: God, Guns and Homeschooling.
They want division.
They want easy dogma and facile slogans, they want their anger to be validated.
They want Fortress America.

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 10:31:38 AM   
takemeforyourown


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They want more bondage clubs.

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 10:32:28 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Agreed, and those days will not return. Especially since now, most people are resting on their asses awaiting for entitlements funded by those trying, against the tide, to succeed under present conditions set up, and being expanded, to encumber their efforts.
Do you really believe this? Most people are resting on their asses waiting for entitlements?

Only you and a few others are working, striving, against the tide, etc.?


Yes regarding the entitlement seekers - No I, and a few others, are not the only ones striving against the tide.

Figuratively and literally people are sitting on their asses waiting for entitlements. You mistake that representation as blaming them for doing so. I don't only not blame them, I think they are wise in taking that position. It makes no sense for a man/woman who is trying to raise a child to seek employment which would result in them losing their existing meager entitlement benefits required to feed, house, and clothe themselves and their child. That's how the programs are set up. It's better to sit on your ass waiting for the next entitlement be granted to you. Not working, you get food, housing, child care assistance; you wouldn't get that working for me - counseling you, I'd recommend sitting on your ass.

The insidious nature of entitlements is that they insure a market and create a 'class' of people who then become grass roots support for the bigger beneficiaries - special interests and industries. Not one entitlement program benefits the individual, who can use it to benefit themselves, as much as it benefits some PAC paying corporation. Sure there are exceptions used for 'posters' from each side of the debate; however subsidized corporate farms are a LOT better off than any food subsidized single parent. Yet, every one of those subsidized parents would vote to maintain, if not increase, the status quo and increase those subsidizes versus cutting them off. The idea of having to be 'self reliant' is so feared and people have been trained to avoid it for so long, that the possibly to do so is avoided at all cost. The resulting win for special interests and their integration to the current US system is why sitting on your ass makes much more sense than working outside the system and improving your life.

The current trend is that those entitlements will be expanded. The fools are those choosing to "strive against the tide".

I think the majority of people are striving against the tide. Considering that using 30 Million people are uninsured by the largest number represented it still represents a minority would be one current example. I also don't believe that all those unemployed aren't looking and desire work, however there is a minority who celebrated the extension of benefits to 99 weeks to defer seeking employment for 98. I don't think the majority of young men and woman want to be considered as a 'child' until 26; yet many applauded it. I wonder when military service, the drinking age, and the age of consent, will be similarly adjusted under the new Federally mandated extension of childhood under the Health Care Law?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Merc belongs to the victimized class,
A major difference between us kittin; even after 9/11 I NEVER wanted to be, or considered myself, a "victim" of anything. Your posts and rationalized projected blame are indications that you feel you are a victim of everything - it gives you an excuse for whatever it is you seek and don't acquire. Reality is you, and I, are in the exact conditions we deserve - good or bad. Another distinction is I see work and effort as a means to an ends - not government intervention, entitlement, or assistance.

However, I appreciate that if I were I brought up in a generation where you didn't have to strive to be the best and work for a reward, and was given a 'trophy' just because I participated; I expect I too would be sitting on my ass - waiting for someone else to bring me my next trophy. I also know, like most of the generation who got those 'participation' awards - I wouldn't see any value in them, or try to be the best with an expectation to be awarded accordingly. Never more so than now when the 'reward' you end up with by playing/working hard and sacrificing to succeed; results in paying out more to give more 'trophies' to those who just show up.

I don't blame you for having your perspective - I feel sorry for you.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/30/2010 10:33:55 AM >

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 10:43:54 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

One where contracts replace laws prohibiting, or allowing individuals to live, love, and partner with whomever and as many they choose.
One where the religion industry is taxed like any other industry.
I somehow doubt the majority of Tea Partiers would agree with either of those two points.

Edited to correct a dumb typo


< Message edited by Arpig -- 3/30/2010 10:52:05 AM >


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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 10:44:37 AM   
subtee


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Do you really believe this? Most people are resting on their asses waiting for entitlements?

Only you and a few others are working, striving, against the tide, etc.?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth



Yes regarding the entitlement seekers - No I, and a few others, are not the only ones striving against the tide.


Hang on, please, let's keep this a little simple (for me, haha). You said most people. You believe most people would rather not work? Would rather receive entitlements?

I didn't say anyone was blaming anyone. Maybe you really do believe it's wise of folks to sit on their asses and seek entitlements.

Again, what are we going to do with the Boomers? What is the solution? Just broad strokes please?

Must we care for them?

If so, should it be exclusively the responsibility of the family?


Should it include government help?



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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 10:49:19 AM   
pahunkboy


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the fed can create a trillion $ with the stroke of a pen.



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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 11:01:18 AM   
brainiacsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

[...]Many people see 'America' fading because they see their ability to make personal decisions fading, replaced by government dictates. They want government off their backs, but at the same time they have become comfortable with their personal entitlements and have great difficulty combining those two concepts. Too much indoctrination and political correctness in the last two generations of students may have eliminated fundamental personal accountability from the thought process from many 'Americans'; but that's my opinion only.
[...]

This sums it up pretty well. I watched Larry King last night and saw an angry old man from the LV Tea Party interviewed and he was saying "...the govt is out of control...they want to take over everything...all these new taxes....what about my Social Security?" And then there was the classic sign from the Tea Party march on Washington last Sept: "Govt, keep your hands off my Medicare."

It does make you think...

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 11:06:39 AM   
pahunkboy


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computer models have it all figured out.

right down to the finest detail.

(that includes human capital.)

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 11:07:19 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

One where contracts replace laws prohibiting, or allowing individuals to live, love, and partner with whomever and as many they choose.
One where the religion industry is taxed like any other industry.
I somehow doubt the majority of Tea Partiers would agree with either of those two points.
Probably not, but I answered the question as an individual and not as a member of any group.

I've yet to take (waste?) any time trying to figure our what the "Tea Partiers" platform is. It seems to have the 'herd of cats' persona which I equate to the loose, and since disbanded, collective of individuals who had Cindy Sheehan as their titular head against the last Administration. There is no homogenized identity. They simply do not support anything coming from the current Administration - period.

BTW - Cindy is still out there plugging away. The war goes on, but coverage of her and her efforts seems to have vanished. Pointing again to political party alliance being more important to people than issues. Imagine the outcry if this Health Bill, benefiting the Health Care industry immediately but having little or no benefit to the population for 4 years, was passed by the Republicans!

quote:

You believe most people would rather not work?
Yes - and have come to that reasonable decision based upon the bottom line impact to their lives working would have, and the expectation of increasing entitlements that would not be available to them if they were working.

quote:

Maybe you really do believe it's wise of folks to sit on their asses and seek entitlements.

I'd be happy for you to provide points which would convince me otherwise under current conditions.

quote:

Again, what are we going to do with the Boomers? What is the solution? Just broad strokes please?
You are bringing a tangential issue into the argument however my answer would be consistent with the expanded answer I provided earlier. "WE" shouldn't need to do anything "with the Boomers". The 'Boomers' should have and ought to be, doing for themselves, and projecting out for their retirement. Poor decisions have bad results. If they made them - they should expect to live with the consequences, seek charity, or hope their children can provide for their needs.

quote:

Should it include government help?
No.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/30/2010 11:31:23 AM >

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 11:30:05 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
No actually its your post that is bullshit...tell us Subrob,what happened in 1965...what changed?


Kennedy increased Green Beret activity in Vietnam

In 1965? Really?

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 11:33:42 AM   
Justme696


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quote:

Kennedy increased Green Beret activity in Vietnam


that is smart..because red would be seen easily

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RE: Which America? - 3/30/2010 11:41:03 AM   
subtee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


quote:

You believe most people would rather not work?
Yes - and have come to that reasonable decision based upon the bottom line impact to their lives working would have, and the expectation of increasing entitlements that would not be available to them if they were working.

quote:

Maybe you really do believe it's wise of folks to sit on their asses and seek entitlements.

I'd be happy for you to provide points which would convince me otherwise under current conditions.

quote:

Again, what are we going to do with the Boomers? What is the solution? Just broad strokes please?
You are bringing a tangential issue into the argument however my answer would be consistent with the expanded answer I provided earlier. "WE" shouldn't need to do anything "with the Boomers". The 'Boomers' should have and ought to be, doing for themselves, and projecting out for their retirement. Poor decisions have bad results. If they made them - they should expect to live with the consequences, seek charity, or hope their children can provide for their needs.

quote:

Should it include government help?
No.


No, I don't think it matters, in terms of this thread, the reasons for you to believe it's wise/better for people to sit on their asses, nor am I interested in arguing it here.

I don't think it's a tangential issue at all, having read eyesopened's post. But you've made it very clear what your beliefs are and that's what I asked. Thank you.

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