RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow

RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (Full Version)

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ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 11:14:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity What of that is untrue, or contradicts anything else that I have written? Do you think I agree with this beheading, or forcing women to wear Burqas in 120 degree heat, or the murdering of young rape victims by their own fathers out of shame? Show me the inconsistency, or where it is factually incorrect. I think the point is that these actions are not representative of a "moderate" society that is trying to "lead the rest of the Middle East toward a brighter future." That's the inconsistency.

subtee -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 11:15:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda The problem is, his thought process is so circular and convoluted, he genuinely does not comprehend how completely illogical and contradictory it is. He really does think it makes sense, and just doesn't understand how everyone else is baffled by it. I know I fire a lot of rounds in his direction myself, but in all honesty I have to say - he really does mean well. He really does think this stuff makes sense. Panda,I've tried really tried in the past to take that route with him myself(it might not seem that way...but a long time ago.....) he makes it too dam hard though.My patience,not to mention my tolerance for his personal attacks, are of a finite nature...and he has long ago spent up both. And yet, this is what the majority of P & R is anymore (it seems to me). Usually the same few posters, round and round and round; then ad nauseum.

LadyEllen -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 11:19:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity You just couldn't stand it, could you. You had to take this pathetic stab at me because you hate being in agreement with me that much. quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen With respect Mike, showing how Sanity has gone off the rails is probably a task for which someone suitably qualified would be more appropriate; a behavioural psychologist for instance. E You can see it as a stab at you or not, pathetic or not. Actually its more a stab at the vast majority of your views, your ideas and the policies you advocate. On this one you have a good point that engagement is the way forward and I am not averse to saying so. Indeed, if Cucky ever made a sensible point - it could happen - then I wouldnt be averse to saying so either, and I do declare that I should feel no problem whatever with shooting down someone whom you might perceive to be "on my side" too. It would be a far more civil place round here if "your side" - because it is mostly your side I see as guilty in this - were prepared to adopt the same approach; who knows? We might even generate more light than heat on occasions. E

Politesub53 -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 11:21:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity What of that is untrue, or contradicts anything else that I have written? Do you think I agree with this beheading, or forcing women to wear Burqas in 120 degree heat, or the murdering of young rape victims by their own fathers out of shame? Show me the inconsistency, or where any of it is factually incorrect. The Saudis are comparatively moderate, I have spelled out what I mean by that in this thread numerous times already. And there is no doubt that they have room to moderate further. You're really trying to split some fine hairs here. I have never said you agree with beheadings, I have repeatedly said that the Saudis, in doing this, are not moderate. Frankly I dont see how you think that is splitting hairs. Dont forget this whole thread is about the Saudis deciding to execute a tourist.

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 11:27:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda I think the point is that these actions are not representative of a "moderate" society that is trying to "lead the rest of the Middle East toward a brighter future." You are deliberately dicing up my words because you can't argue with what I actually write. You mean you didn't write this - quote: The thing is, the Saudis are the moderates in the area. They truly are our friends, and the hope is that they will climb into the current century as the world continues to shrink because they're mingling with us through the wonders of modern travel and communication and help to lead the rest of the Middle East towards a brighter future. Who did, then? Again, I am convinced that you genuinely don't get how completely illogical and contradictory your positions are. It's not our fault that when we repeat them back to you, they make no sense. They already made no sense before we even started repeating them back.

LadyEllen -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 11:28:54 AM)
I think Sanity is arguing that comparatively, the Saudis are more moderate than other regimes - not that they are objectively moderate (which should be impossible for anyone to be or to judge). Compared to others in the region perhaps, and most definitely by comparison to fundamentalist radical groups, the Saudis are more moderate - but its undeniable theyre a million miles away from what we would understand as moderate and indeed a good distance removed from regimes such as those in Jordan, Lebanon and even Syria. E

brainiacsub -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 11:31:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Oh, zing. I can see why you call yourself brainiac. That could be the number of deliberate derails too though, you know. . quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub Ummm...I was actually counting brain cells. Thomas, relax... it was a joke. I set it up as a joke, I just didn't think it would be you who would help deliver the punchline. It might surprise you to know that I don't think you have been entirely wrong in this thread. Sometimes your conclusions are correct, but the logic and reason you use to get there is often very flawed, so people tend to focus on the "means" rather than the "end." The attacks are often disproportionate to the offense, but that has as much to do with your style as it does with the substance. Just trying to throw you a bone here, as I have intentionally kept my dogs out of this fight.

brainiacsub -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 11:42:36 AM)
Damn, that could be a South Park skit.

slvemike4u -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 11:43:55 AM)
There is always "polls and random stupidity".....perhaps that would prove more entertaining [:D]

subtee -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 11:45:48 AM)
It certainly is, Mike. [:(]

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 11:56:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen I think Sanity is arguing that comparatively, the Saudis are more moderate than other regimes - not that they are objectively moderate (which should be impossible for anyone to be or to judge). Compared to others in the region perhaps, and most definitely by comparison to fundamentalist radical groups, the Saudis are more moderate - but its undeniable theyre a million miles away from what we would understand as moderate and indeed a good distance removed from regimes such as those in Jordan, Lebanon and even Syria. I would agree with your assessment, and perhaps that's what he thinks he's saying. It's hard to be sure, because his arguments tend to wander toward the point of least resistance. He started out by calling them "the" moderates in the region, then said he meant that they're comparatively moderate, and still continues to refer to them as "moderates" per se. And he continually defends their barbaric practices of religious executions and mutilations, saying that they're actually not such bad folks after all because they're nice to us, and they just need more time to figure out that they shouldn't be cutting people's heads off for telling fortunes. As always, it's hard to figure out exactly what he's saying, but the central theme is that they are a moderate regime and there's nothing really wrong with their religious savagery, because after all they mean well. I reject his position, to the extent that I'm even able to understand it.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 11:59:56 AM)
~ Fast Questions ~ From a standing position of non-intervention and believing that any Country should be self determining regarding how they choose to live with, kill, or judge and punish each other under their law; a couple of questions come to mind while reading the comments on this situation. Which do you think it more hypocritical; applying 'Western' standards to a distinctively different, autonomous culture, or doing it selectively when the culture's practice does, or doesn't, fit into your political philosophy? When does an 'indigenous people' lose their status regarding having their culture 'protected' and come under scrutiny if someone who happens to voluntarily enter their autonomous domain violates a rule and is subjected to their legal system and consequences? Just curious...

Sanity -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 12:04:06 PM)
Try reading the parts you did not bold as well, dear panda. quote: ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda quote: The thing is, the Saudis are the moderates in the area. They truly are our friends, and the hope is that they will climb into the current century as the world continues to shrink because they're mingling with us through the wonders of modern travel and communication and help to lead the rest of the Middle East towards a brighter future. Who did, then? Again, I am convinced that you genuinely don't get how completely illogical and contradictory your positions are. It's not our fault that when we repeat them back to you, they make no sense. They already made no sense before we even started repeating them back.

Sanity -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 12:12:59 PM)
He wasn't actually a tourist though, he was a pilgrim. A Muslim visiting a holy site... and there is a distinction. He is being prosecuted by the religious police of Saudi Arabia, as a Muslim, so maybe its not so much a Saudi Arabia issue as it is a Muslim issue. From panda's original rant: "Sibat was in Saudi Arabia to perform the Islamic religious pilgrimage known as Umra."

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 12:14:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity He wasn't actually a tourist though, he was a pilgrim. A Muslim visiting a holy site... and there is a distinction. Really? What is it?

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 12:18:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Try reading the parts you did not bold as well, dear panda. I did. So what? It does nothing to change the meaning of the paragraph - the Saudis are the moderate regime in the Middle East, and a likely candidate to lead the rest of the region toward a brighter future.

brainiacsub -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 12:23:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth ~ Fast Questions ~ From a standing position of non-intervention and believing that any Country should be self determining regarding how they choose to live with, kill, or judge and punish each other under their law; a couple of questions come to mind while reading the comments on this situation. Which do you think it more hypocritical; applying 'Western' standards to a distinctively different, autonomous culture, or doing it selectively when the culture's practice does, or doesn't, fit into your political philosophy? When does an 'indigenous people' lose their status regarding having their culture 'protected' and come under scrutiny if someone who happens to voluntarily enter their autonomous domain violates a rule and is subjected to their legal system and consequences? Just curious... Merc, I am assuming you addressed this question to me specifically, correct? This is a good one. I have asked myself this very thing many times as I've watched our country spend it's resources and sacrifice it's finest over the decades to engage with one enemy or another, whether real or imagined. I've never really come up with what I believe to be the "right" answer, whatever that might be, but some positions are more justifiable than others. One thing that I have learned about these forums is that one must really have their shit together before posting for the world to see...too many smart people here waiting to eviscerate the unprepared. I am always game for healthy debate, but I don't want to be the next dumbass, so give me a couple of hours to gather my thoughts (need to take the real dogs out for a walk), and then I'll get right back to ya.

Politesub53 -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 12:24:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth ~ Fast Questions ~ From a standing position of non-intervention and believing that any Country should be self determining regarding how they choose to live with, kill, or judge and punish each other under their law; a couple of questions come to mind while reading the comments on this situation. Which do you think it more hypocritical; applying 'Western' standards to a distinctively different, autonomous culture, or doing it selectively when the culture's practice does, or doesn't, fit into your political philosophy? When does an 'indigenous people' lose their status regarding having their culture 'protected' and come under scrutiny if someone who happens to voluntarily enter their autonomous domain violates a rule and is subjected to their legal system and consequences? Just curious... In answer to the first question. When doing it selectively must be the more hypocritical. At least the first instance is even handed. To answer the second, this crime, if you can call fortune telling a crime, didnt take place inside Saudi Arabia. If it had of, you may have had a point.

Politesub53 -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 12:28:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity He wasn't actually a tourist though, he was a pilgrim. A Muslim visiting a holy site... and there is a distinction. He is being prosecuted by the religious police of Saudi Arabia, as a Muslim, so maybe its not so much a Saudi Arabia issue as it is a Muslim issue. From panda's original rant: "Sibat was in Saudi Arabia to perform the Islamic religious pilgrimage known as Umra." It is the Saudi authorities that tried and convicted him. Tourist or Pilgrim I fail to see the distinction. As I said to merc, the so called crime took place outside Saudi, not inside.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Our Friends, The Saudis, Will Behead A Tourist Tomorrow (4/2/2010 12:41:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub Merc, I am assuming you addressed this question to me specifically, correct? This is a good one. No - It wasn't directed to anyone; however thank you for your response. In my opinion you have not, and are NOT representing yourself as a "dumb ass"! (Edited, because I didn't like the way the first attempt read.) quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 When doing it selectively must be the more hypocritical. At least the first instance is even handed. Polite, I apologize for being dense or else something must be lost in translation - I am having trouble understanding the meaning of those two sentences in response to my first question. If you wouldn't mind try again - THANKS! quote: To answer the second, this crime, if you can call fortune telling a crime, didnt take place inside Saudi Arabia. If it had of, you may have had a point. I don't - the Saudi government and people do. Anyone going there shouldn't plead ignorance as a defense. What crimes in the UK are ignored, or dropped, for similar reasoning from the accused, or is it the penalty that determines the acceptance of 'local' standards? I'm not attempting to make a point. I think the Saudi Government will be making one whatever ultimately happens. Whether heads being chopped off or the harvesting of cocoa beans making children's hands bleed - having opinions is within the nature of man. When does a 'one true way' (Western or any other perspective) get enforced by guns and blood? Of course that question assumes that the 'West' has an agreed upon consensus. The very thought of one, to me, points to the theoretical, and purely academical, nature of the entire debate. 2nd Edit quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 It is the Saudi authorities that tried and convicted him. Tourist or Pilgrim I fail to see the distinction. As I said to merc, the so called crime took place outside Saudi, not inside. Polite, in many places throughout the world, you have to be aware and adapt to local laws or be prepared to accept the consequences. Whether true or not in this case that the 'crime' took place outside Saudi Arabia, as a tourist, 'pilgrim', the expectation of 'exceptional treatment' is foolish. Anywhere we travel we make sure we're fully aware of the local laws and either follow them or assume to live with the consequence of disobeying; granted none as draconian as in this case.

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