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So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 8:37:15 AM

LadyPact

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So a thought occurred to Me while reading two of the threads that are currently on the main page. One being the Generational Differences thread and the other was the Misogynistic Men Who Think They Are Dominant thread.

In the first, during the conversation, it was pointed out that we often give a new top/Dom/whatever some fairly sage advice. We tell them that if they want to learn things, there are a number of good non fiction books out there about BDSM. We encourage them to attend munches and events where they can learn various things. More or less, we point them in the direction of educating themselves about kink and power imbalance dynamics.

Then, I got to the other thread, during the course of which the common cry of 'poor new, inexperienced sub' who when first starting out is just victim material for the big, bad Doms. The new sub (generally female) just has to figure things out on her own. We don't nearly as often recommend some reading, such as "The New Bottoming Book" or "The Ethical Slut". Rarely do we tell her to hit the local munch and start getting to know other submissives of the same gender that can give her some pointers. (I avoided using the word "mentor" here because I don't want that confused with the male Dom/female sub scenario that happens all too often.) Basically, we don't give her the equivilant advice that we would give any new person on the upper side of the kneel.

So, I'm curious as to why this is and why we don't give the same kind of sound advice to someone new, regardless of what side of the kneel the are on. Thoughts?

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Post #: 1

RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 8:39:39 AM

Justme696

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I don't see that difference all the time.
Sometimes they are different ( perhaps different people in the thread and ofcourse different poster..differently responding to answers)..but often the advise is the same also

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 9:28:39 AM

VaguelyCurious

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Sometimes it feels like there's a belief that submission is 'easier' somehow than dominance-maybe because less practical skills are involved, or because submissives perhaps are not expected to take an active role, or because they 'ought' to be able to be a 'good submissive' just by taking instructions from their dominant, whereas a dominant is supposed to know how to *give* those instructions.

Just a thought-I'm not saying that the belief is true, just that it sometimes feels prevalent.

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 9:43:59 AM

switch2please

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I agree with VaguelyCurious, there is an understanding that submission is/should be easier or perhaps come more naturally than domination, and that less practical skills are needed...

But while we're on the subject, are there any other books you would recommend? The submissive non-fiction book list seems comparatively sparse.

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Post #: 4

RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 9:49:09 AM

beej

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just in my experience with actual posts, i find that new tops/Doms are more often looking for concrete skill building, like the military guy who is apart from his wife and trying to keep a functional D/s going. in most of the new sub threads, they seem to be looking for encouragement/consolation/clarification, so that's what they get. i haven't been here long, but i haven't yet read a thread in which the sub asked, "how do i get rid of my gag reflex?" or "can anyone recommend five bite sized foods that will stick to my tits while i walk across a room?"

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Post #: 5

RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 9:53:22 AM

DarlingSavage

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quote:

"how do i get rid of my gag reflex?"

What's the answer? I would like to get rid of mine, should the opportunity ever present itself again. lol

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 10:07:03 AM

mnottertail

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Pop by the house.

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 10:15:23 AM

switch2please

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This morning I teased B by eating a large banana in two bites, tee hee - I don't have much of a gag reflex, but unfortunately I don't know how to get rid of one if you do. Practice perhaps?

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Post #: 8

RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 10:17:54 AM

mnottertail

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Pop by the house.

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 10:27:08 AM

UniqueRaven

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(note: i only talk in terms of male Dom/fem sub dynamic simply because that is my only knowledge and experience

)

i agree that there is a need for new submissives to be given support and direction, and often they just don't get it here. i actually spend a good part of my time helping other newer subs and slaves via email - and i often think to myself, "why aren't they getting this help?"

i think it is a common thing though with many reasons - one being that submissive women often are so much more emotionally entangled in their budding submission than Dominant men are in their new Dominance. i think it is more easy to tell a Dominant man, "pick up a flogger, swing it this way, and then sit down and evaluate your goals as a Dom, and how you want to be served, etc. etc. etc." Submissive skills are softer - and as a result much less easy to just package in a way that works for everyone.

Also, many submissive women simply aren't ready for much. It is a journey, and can take years and years. i would say it took me about 3 years to really internalize slavery (with much more to go!), and i see myself as "slave-wired" since birth - i've never been anything else. But it is hard, and i made a lot of mistakes....but i also simply wasn't ready for more back then. i think submissive women simply have to take the steps to internalize submission, and that takes time - reading books and talking with others helps, but internalizing that ability to submit - it is an individual journey, and one fraught with miss-steps.

Honestly i do think that the "mentoring" is the best way to go for a new sub - to find a more experienced woman whose "style" she resonates with that she can continue to talk with, and consult, and consider, and discuss things as they come up. The mentor can also recommend books, readings, journal entries, etc.

i do think we could do a better job on the boards suggesting readings, thoughts, etc., but i also think overall a bit more compassion and understanding wouldn't hurt either.

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Post #: 10

RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 11:14:33 AM

ishyB

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

Sometimes it feels like there's a belief that submission is 'easier' somehow than dominance-maybe because less practical skills are involved, or because submissives perhaps are not expected to take an active role, or because they 'ought' to be able to be a 'good submissive' just by taking instructions from their dominant, whereas a dominant is supposed to know how to *give* those instructions.

Just a thought-I'm not saying that the belief is true, just that it sometimes feels prevalent.

If there is such a belief out there, then it's wrong.
I think that submissives should go through just as much trouble educating themselves on proper BDSM techniques as Dominants do.
The best way a submissive can protect themselves from becoming a "prey" is by knowing what it the right and the wrong way to do things. How could you accurately judge if the situation you are putting yourself in is safe, when you don't know what is safe and what is dangerous.

I used to work in a BDSM club, and had a lot of casual play partners. Some of them experienced some of them beginners.
I've never felt like I was taking control, or topping from the bottom if I pointed out to a play partner that a particular way of bondage, or a particular place to be hit with a cane was generally considered to be unsafe.

If I would have had no knowledge on the proper techniques, I would have been unable to even judge how safe the situation I was putting myself in was, or how experienced a certain person is, and thus had nothing to go on but their own word when it came to their knowledge about the "do and don't" of play.
Submissives should get the same education Dominants get, if only to enable them to judge the claims Dominants make about their own experience.

I wish you well,

ishy

< Message edited by ishyB -- 4/2/2010 11:21:46 AM >

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 11:33:45 AM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

So, I'm curious as to why this is and why we don't give the same kind of sound advice to someone new, regardless of what side of the kneel the are on. Thoughts?
[/color]

I don't agree with your premise. It's my observation that the advise given is all over the map but largely dependent on how the person initially presences themselves... regardless of their self-proclaimed status. Fool gets Fool advice... Mature gets Mature advice... that has been my observation at least.

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 12:04:32 PM

Missokyst

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I am going with this answer. I haven't noticed that subs are told to fend for themselves. What I DO see is people telling subs to get a reality check and develop the skills we all learned in a nilla life. Skills can be learned. Slowing the f down and recognizing the situations you put yourself in may have danger takes sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Fool gets Fool advice... Mature gets Mature advice... that has been my observation at least.

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Post #: 13

RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 12:46:49 PM

bondmaid123

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I think perhaps it's because by and large dominants who ask for advice (the ones who are seriously looking for advice, not the ones looking for free wank material) come across as being legitimately looking for suggestions, where the subs by and large are coming across as fluff-headed twits who don't want to think for themselves and want The Key To The Universe handed to them on a platter (preferably neatly packaged with a set of Hello Kitty ankle/wrist restraints and a jawbreaker ball gag....). (See, there's a whole HUGE group of people who think submission means "YAY! I don't have to think anymore!" and I think the percentage of doms who think "YAY! I can be a sociopathic bastard and get away with it!" is not the same proportion. :P )

This could just be my biased interpretation and is NOT an absolute......

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Post #: 14

RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 12:59:01 PM

MissBeautiful2U

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That is a good point LadyPact-- I really haven't noticed too many sub women asking for advice on how they can improve on their submissive skills. I've had a few conversations with guys who are single and looking where I've made suggestions regarding skills that they should consider developing while they are searching for their Lady. (For example, cooking, massage, computers, hairstyling, manicures-- skills that might be useful to their future owner.) I think that many of the newer sub women who I've encountered are looking for emotional support or thoughts on whether things are safe. Most aren't looking for practical skill suggestions.

I think that it is very true that a sub with knowledge can make the whole experience better for everyone-- and help her/him to know what s/he might desire in a partner/top, but it really doesn't seem like most are seeking that out.

I think that perhaps one difference is that as the Dominant, you are ultimately responsible for leading and ensuring the safety of your submissive. I know that a lot can be said for the submissive ensuring their safety as well and I'm not discounting that, but I think that is why the D types seek out more practical advice.

It definitely is something to think about...

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Post #: 15

RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 1:07:01 PM

GraciousLady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I am going with this answer. I haven't noticed that subs are told to fend for themselves. What I DO see is people telling subs to get a reality check and develop the skills we all learned in a nilla life. Skills can be learned. Slowing the f down and recognizing the situations you put yourself in may have danger takes sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Fool gets Fool advice... Mature gets Mature advice... that has been my observation at least.

I just hate to not agree with Ladypact because she is always so wise but I seem to feel like KnightofMists and Missokyst. The advise given usualy reflects the person who asks for advise. If a person comes here full of drama or looking for wank material they get blasted regardless of their side of the kneel.

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Post #: 16

RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 1:18:28 PM

lally2

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maybe we should suggest a permanent resource board where material is listed. people whove read a book can rate it,much like a book club. when someone new comes along we dont then have to keep repeating ourselves we can just suggest they go to that board.

i think LP has a valid point here, i dont remember a single thread that has suggested to a sub to go and read a book. we hand out our second hand experience and then add the codicil that its our experience only and others come on and say, ignore everything youre told and go and find youre own way.

i do think we tend to give new subs some good advice though, usually anyway but all too often we're a little harsh as well. i dont know why that is.

at the 'kindergarten aol board' there were some amazing subs and Dominants who took the trouble to steer us straight and endlessly patient while we bounced about like so many kids with a new toy to play with. the sub frenzy was palpable. maybe we need a board like that where new subs can bounce about and be dumb together and experienced folk can drop in from time to time and steer them straight.

the only trouble with a board for new subs is that it would just probably turn into a predators smorgesboard

< Message edited by lally2 -- 4/2/2010 1:26:20 PM >

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 1:33:49 PM

VaguelyCurious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GraciousLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

I am going with this answer. I haven't noticed that subs are told to fend for themselves. What I DO see is people telling subs to get a reality check and develop the skills we all learned in a nilla life. Skills can be learned. Slowing the f down and recognizing the situations you put yourself in may have danger takes sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Fool gets Fool advice... Mature gets Mature advice... that has been my observation at least.

I just hate to not agree with Ladypact because she is always so wise but I seem to feel like KnightofMists and Missokyst. The advise given usualy reflects the person who asks for advise. If a person comes here full of drama or looking for wank material they get blasted regardless of their side of the kneel.

Correct me if I'm wrong, LP, but I read the OP differently to you guys-I thought LP was asking about the nature of the advice given, rather than the quality.

So more about how when a D-type asks a serious question they are told to read books, and when an s-type asks a serious question they aren't, than who gets blasted when.

y/n?

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 2:11:03 PM

Frankseas

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Good point and yes advice should be given to help out any new or more educated subs out there. As the subs dont need to run into the "Twue Doms"(a thread that appeared a ways back) and be hurt or put off of BDSM all together.

Who ever asks for advice should receive it in good spirit so it well help them and us grow as a community and makes us all happy no matter what our kinks may be!?

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Post #: 19

RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 2:50:35 PM

DarlingSavage

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quote:

ORIGINAL: switch2please

This morning I teased B by eating a large banana in two bites, tee hee - I don't have much of a gag reflex, but unfortunately I don't know how to get rid of one if you do. Practice perhaps?

Well, I've found that lying on your back on the bed and aligning your mouth with your throat works really well. Quite honestly, come to think of it, I'm pretty good at sucking cock, I really like it a lot! It's when they cum that I have trouble with the gag reflex. I'd really like to learn how to be a good swallower.

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Strangers have the BEST candy!

Puppy dogs are my favorite people!

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Post #: 20

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