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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 5:28:59 PM

SimplyMichael

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we try and keep the little bitches ignorant so we call slap a collar of predation on them. Makes scoring fresh meat easier.

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 5:44:29 PM

beej

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
Correct me if I'm wrong, LP, but I read the OP differently to you guys-I thought LP was asking about the nature of the advice given, rather than the quality.

So more about how when a D-type asks a serious question they are told to read books, and when an s-type asks a serious question they aren't, than who gets blasted when.

y/n?

that's how i read it, but i felt (again, from my limited experience here) that subs generally don't ask questions that can be answered with reading material and listed suggestions. they (i should say we because i did it too) ask questions like, "what did he mean by this?" and "has anyone else experienced this and how did you feel about it?" i don't think those are less serious questions, but they can't really be addressed with a book rec or a list of ideas. and i venture to say that subs tend to ask these kinds of nebulous questions because a sub already knows what s/he is supposed to do to the letter. the questions of interest arise from a sub reconciling her feelings to the experience or outcome.

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 8:48:28 PM

lucylucy

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I have noticed that many times when subs do post a question asking for "skill-building" advice, they are told simply "talk to your Dominant," which to me indicates that many people think that a good Dominant will teach his or her sub how to be a good sub, but no one seems to expect a sub to teach his or her Dominant how to be a good Dominant.

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/2/2010 8:57:10 PM

Smutmonger

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It's because a lot of bdsm clings to outmoded gender stereotypes about her "Owner" teaching her everything.

And that the best thing to do is just wait for Prince Charming to show up and make every thing peachy keen..

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 2:26:00 AM

lally2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger

It's because a lot of bdsm clings to outmoded gender stereotypes about her "Owner" teaching her everything.

And that the best thing to do is just wait for Prince Charming to show up and make every thing peachy keen..

isnt that odd! - i hadnt thought of it like that but its true.

we also spend time judging the Dominant from a distance without getting the full sp on everything.

so just out of curiosity what books are out there for new subs, i dont know of any at all. when i was researching myself i went to places like 'castle realm' (i know, groan) and to another place with the dodgy premis that it was only open to submissives -

if people want to learn and build up a relative arsenal of guidelines then there is stuff on the net to read, even if alot of it is flowery, lala land, skipping through perfect bliss bollox - or here, of course.

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 8:17:06 AM

Smutmonger

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I know. The girls who impress me the most are usually the ones looking to be mentally and physically in shape for a worthy owner. Not the ones sitting on thier computer chairs-reading fantasy bodice ripper romances while thier asses spread off of the sides of said chair-meanwhile-making up judgments about how "Doms should be"

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 9:27:57 AM

SimplyMichael

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The dynamic does exist and here is why...

Mr.NewDom comes in and asks a question. Every insecure dom has to tell him he isn't one, every dom on the prowl has to talk about hard it is to get to whatever "level" they think they are on, and the ones who do have advice to give are tired of giving to those who wouldn't listen. Subs have to come in and tell him they aren't as good as their ubermaster and single subs don't want to say much

Ms.FreshMeat comes in and asks a question and ever dom with a dick wants to preen and posture and bury her under advice to show how evolved they are.

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 9:35:26 AM

DesFIP

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Another vote for a sticky with lists of good nonfiction books suitable for all genders and orientations, how to judge who to go to for advice, and so on.

However as a new sub, I tried ordering the typical nonfiction books and didn't find that they really speak to me. I need to know that his rope skills are good, I don't need to get the same skills. Same for most of the other books out there, they are primarily aimed for tops to improve play skills.

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 9:46:53 AM

SimplyMichael

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Des, what on earth books did you read? Certainly not The Bottoming Book or SlaveCraft?

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 9:51:08 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Des, what on earth books did you read? Certainly not The Bottoming Book or SlaveCraft?

Michael - Get off the god damn internet - and bring me some more coffee!

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 10:11:16 AM

eyesopened

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I did get a lot of the same advice. To read, to attend munches. The books were very helpful. The munches not so much. But then I began my journey without already having a partner. No one could tell me to "ask your Dominant" since I didn't have one.

Where I lived, it was next to impossible to find a submissive willing to teach or share outside of specific events and demonstrations. Could be simply a regional thing. But seeking out educational demos and events are great for anyone, and I recommend them to anyone at any level.

And just an aside.... my dentist told me the trick for gag reflex... peppermint! NOW I understand how it got to be a tradition to leave a mint on the pillow!

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 10:30:16 AM

SimplyMichael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Des, what on earth books did you read? Certainly not The Bottoming Book or SlaveCraft?

Michael - Get off the god damn internet - and bring me some more coffee!

But Sir, I am so damn comfy! What do you want, I had to have a lowly woman teach me how to make your coffee...but I know now and it won't happen again Sir! Remeber who brought the guns and ammo!

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 10:33:25 AM

Andalusite

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Hmm, I've seen people of all genders and orientations advised to go to munches or classes or other events, and *sometimes* book recommendations (though submissives and bottoms do seem to ask questions that don't lend themselves to that as easily). Personally, I found those types of resources helpful, but didn't encounter any of them until I'd already been *doing* BDSM for almost 10 years. I've dated several people who were new to BDSM or D/s, and only went to a formal class with one of them. With the others, we just did stuff together, paid attention to body language, talked about what we liked and wanted and didn't want, started slowly and upped the intensity as trust grew, and so forth. My previous Dominant was fairly new to D/s and BDSM, though he did have some experience on a more casual basis. He wasn't interested in the public scene at all, but he did do some reading. Mostly, he knew what he wanted and expected of me, and communicated it effectively. If someone has a partner yet, I generally figure that the answer to "what should we do" is mostly that - pay attention, be openminded, and see what works for both of you. If they don't, then what they need tends to depend a lot on their target audience. In general, male dominants tend to be expected to have better topping skills. Obviously, Dommes need to develop them too, but the focus here generally tends to be more on service, and how to get what she needs out of a relationship. In general, male submissives tend to be encouraged to develop practical skills such as massage, and to focus a lot on the mindset of service. In general, female submissives tend to be encouraged to focus more on sexual submission than practical skills. That's just my observation on average, not necessarily what *I* suggest to them.

I agree that the books can be useful to everyone, and getting safety information about topping is important for bottoms and submissives as well. Also, getting exposure to a wide range of perspectives, types of play, and so forth can help someone be more aware of what they are drawn to.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 4/3/2010 10:39:47 AM >

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 10:35:03 AM

LadyPact

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Nah. Let beth do it. Personally, I think it's more fun to watch that way.

OK. Kidding aside. I wanted to drop back in after hearing some folks reaction to the thread. A couple of things that I do want to point out:

1. This was never about the idea of stickies or any other thing like that. Personally, I don't see a thing wrong with referring folks to the Book List that Resident Sadist was good enough to start up some time ago. MasterFireMaam also has a book list in her signature. The resources really are already there.

2. I entirely agree with those who said there is a 'you get what you give' vibe to the boards. Seriously, this thread wasn't about the "the problem is that 'master' only calls once a month when he want to fuck, what do I do?" kind of threads. This thread wasn't about how to teach people to have emotional maturity, navigate dating skills, or any other thing that any adult should be able to manage.

3. Since I'm actually serious about this topic, I'd prefer the hijacks about cock sucking and the gag reflex cease. Start your own thread on that.

I really don't see reading material recommended that much for those who are new to the s side of the kneel. I don't think it happens nearly as often as it should. I don't know why this is and it makes no sense to Me. Even the books that we recommend to new tops would be just as good as far as information material for new bottoms. Screw The Roses is a perfect example of this, since it was written by a top and a bottom together so that both perspectives would be included. Jay Wiseman's Erotic Bondage Handbook has excellent sections that any bottom should be aware of (Risk Factors and What To Do About Them starting on pg 73 as well as others). Heck, even The Loving Dominant has chapter five written by a submissive for submissives.

So, My follow up question is, when was the last time you recommended reading material to a new submissive?

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 11:09:45 AM

GrizzlyBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

we try and keep the little bitches ignorant so we call slap a collar of predation on them. Makes scoring fresh meat easier.

Oooo, a new kind of collar to add to my inventory. I'm familiar with concepts for your basic slave collar, Gorean collar, collar of 'O', training collar, collar of consideration, and formal collars.

What, "traditionally", should a collar of predation look like? What material, color, features, etc.? Chain, leather, rope, or fabric? Regular buckle, locking buckle, snaps, plastic quick buckle, Velcro? Or is it "traditionally" just a dog collar from WalMart?

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 11:15:33 AM

GrizzlyBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

... We don't nearly as often recommend some reading, such as "The New Bottoming Book" or "The Ethical Slut". Rarely do we tell her to hit the local munch and start getting to know other submissives of the same gender that can give her some pointers. ...

So, I'm curious as to why this is and why we don't give the same kind of sound advice to someone new, regardless of what side of the kneel the are on. Thoughts?

Those are exactly the things I generally tell unattached new subs who ask for advice. Plus to watch out for the horny guys pretending to be doms just to get in their pants, in case they haven't already figured that one out, and that there is no "One True Way".

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 11:20:05 AM

SimplyMichael

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I am a horny guy who does this to get in hot women's pants....funny thing is, they seem to like it just fine. Being horny is very underrated.

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 12:39:01 PM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Des, what on earth books did you read? Certainly not The Bottoming Book or SlaveCraft?

SlaveCraft I don't know of. But I read the Topping Book, not the Bottoming one. Found it in an alternative bookstore alas now long out of business.

However I was thinking more of Erotic Bondage or S & M 101. They're how to books, with strong emphasis on safety. But it's more important to me that he knows what he's doing when I get tied up then that I do because I'm not into self bondage or topping.

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/3/2010 2:39:42 PM

SimplyMichael

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I adore Jay but his books are slow and pedantic...and at times rather mind numbingly safe.

His ex wife wrote The Topping and the Bottoming book with Dossie and they are much more entertaining reads.

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RE: So Why Not The Same Recommendations? - 4/4/2010 8:30:15 AM

afkarr

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Perhaps at the root of the issue is that submissives come in as many flavors and variations as Dominants, and it's hard to give specific advice outside of the usual "use common sense" type ideas when you don't know what the person is ultimately seeking; indeed, they may not know themselves.

Just as a rope top may have no need to learn needle play- he can just skip those chapters- a casual playdate sub may have no need to learn all about keep domestic harmony. A part timer may not have to work on maintaining the same "mindset" as a 24/7 sub; conversely, a 24/7 sub who is always submissive to the Dom may not need to learn how to read the subtle cues that say the dynamic is shifting for the moment.

Each book/resource/advice person will have their own frame of reference for advising others, which may or may not be helpful to the person, depending upon their needs. Perhaps the best advice/suggestion would be to remind them to remember there is no one "right" way to WIITWD, when a match is right, it will feel right, and above all, "to thine own self be true".

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