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Thadius -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 8:55:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The "sovereign citizen" movement is a loosely organized collection of groups and individuals who have adopted a right-wing anarchist ideology originating in the theories of a group called the Posse Comitatus in the 1970s. Its adherents believe that virtually all existing government in the United States is illegitimate and they seek to "restore" an idealized, minimalist government that never actually existed. To this end, sovereign citizens wage war against the government and other forms of authority using "paper terrorism" harassment and intimidation tactics, and occasionally resorting to violence.


Just curious, what part of their beliefs makes them a "right-wing" group?

to start with their self identification. Then of course is their belief system.

They call them selves a right-wing group? Or is that the label that has been stuck on them by the ADL and other watchdog groups? Or is it that all groups that have "White-Supremacist" elements are right-wing?

I didn't realize anarchy was a right or left position. Guess I was wrong.[8|]



Musicmystery -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 9:00:41 PM)

OK. Do you know of any left-wing white supremacist groups?



Real0ne -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 9:06:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The "sovereign citizen" movement is a loosely organized collection of groups and individuals who have adopted a right-wing anarchist ideology originating in the theories of a group called the Posse Comitatus in the 1970s. Its adherents believe that virtually all existing government in the United States is illegitimate and they seek to "restore" an idealized, minimalist government that never actually existed. To this end, sovereign citizens wage war against the government and other forms of authority using "paper terrorism" harassment and intimidation tactics, and occasionally resorting to violence.


Just curious, what part of their beliefs makes them a "right-wing" group?


First the use of the term sovereign and citizen in the same sentence is a contradiction in terms.   Sort of like flaming water.

Sovereigns and nationals are what created this country so why are sovereigns and nationals are such bad guys in the eyes of 66 beats me.

well 66 if you support the constitution then all government today is illegitimate and thats been proven a long time ago.  In fact some people tossed about a 3/8" thick set of citations on a few senators and judges desks and said read this.  None commented and most walked out.

Its call got em by the balls and they know it.

Whats up with all this?

Paper terrorism? 

How about your fucking bar turn on me's using syntax terrorism eh?  They made a complete abortion out of the legal system verbiage so fucking bad that "box of crackers" now is subject to interpretation.

Thats ok though because we have what we need now days to kick them in the ass using their own tactics because we can move faster than they can. Neo.

Then that takes us to the roots of what they represent;

Tell us 66 what is harrassment and intimidation here:

quote:

These public servants have a choice: Swear an OATH to support the U.S. Constitution OR be replaced immediately or even Arrested. Any failure on their part to comply after 72 hours is considered to be an act of TREASON.


Do you see some unlawful demand here or what realy is your problem with forcing these jokers to take their oath and WHY have they NOT taken their oath and WHY have they been allowed to hold an office of the PEOPLES TRUST with NO OATH?

Finally WHY do you support these violations of the public trust?




DomKen -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 9:17:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The "sovereign citizen" movement is a loosely organized collection of groups and individuals who have adopted a right-wing anarchist ideology originating in the theories of a group called the Posse Comitatus in the 1970s. Its adherents believe that virtually all existing government in the United States is illegitimate and they seek to "restore" an idealized, minimalist government that never actually existed. To this end, sovereign citizens wage war against the government and other forms of authority using "paper terrorism" harassment and intimidation tactics, and occasionally resorting to violence.


Just curious, what part of their beliefs makes them a "right-wing" group?

to start with their self identification. Then of course is their belief system.

They call them selves a right-wing group? Or is that the label that has been stuck on them by the ADL and other watchdog groups? Or is it that all groups that have "White-Supremacist" elements are right-wing?

I didn't realize anarchy was a right or left position. Guess I was wrong.[8|]

Guess you were. Why not try and make your case that the sovereign citizen, posse comitatus and christian identity movements (all hopelessly intertwined) are left wing. Of course you will have to deal with teh hole self identification thing with more than a handwave or is this simply your rather weak 'no true scotsman' complaint about them being called right wing.



Real0ne -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 9:17:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Evenin,

well I did not post either of the threads on the subject but I am well informed on the topic and did explain it accordingly.  So I am not "pushing it" as such unless you mean that my views agree with "The Rule of Law" rather than the abuses that are going on in the trust and debtor creditor world with these invisible contracts.  For instance by the time they get done hypothecating a lousy traffic ticket they will hypothecate it up to 2 million bucks.   Its all about money not justice, they want your money, that was the sole reason for the patriot act.

The problem is that the better people behave the more they have to impose on and into peoples lives to fuel the system.  Its just history repeating itself....

Its really a lot easier to get them to take their oath and put it on record because that is a pure clear cut violation of the public trust that even people who have zippo understanding of the law can immediately connect with.   Trying to get them out when they violate your rights in office has a huge delay (for governors) by the time you run it through court and ......... 

Judges are the most important imo, because they can and do collude to dismiss evidence for your defense.  If you are fighting another party not related to the government then you might get a fair hearing but anytime you go up against the government they stack that deck so high against you that you cant see the top.

Militia?

I think you are confused with another thread.  This about fighting with pen and paper and with backing from the existing provost marshal.  Be careful about what ron says because he enjoys completely mischaracterizing issues that run contrary to the fraudulent government we now enjoy that does not understand the word "re-present".






Do you believe that the only tool to defend the constitution at the hands of a militia are weapons?

That is what a Militia is, is a group of armed people, with the purpose of up-holding and protecting that constitution to insure that the government stays in check. (not the people)

I believe that the pen and the ballot are the primary tools to be taken in hand. I just worry that too many folks will take the extreme stance of believing that the best way to institute change is via violent revolution.

You are unfortunately correct.  I have talked with many people where they often are the ones to bring thee subject up when I am out and about in public and hey they know that it does not matter who you vote in or out its the same crap all the time.  Those are the people who do not study law because they also know how corrupt the courts are.  They have long since come to the conclusion that the only way to fix this government is at the barrel of a gun, and how many people study law to the extent they can defend themselves in court?  1 in 5000 maybe?  So their solution is what they have as their means and that is a gun.

Don't be mistaken, if the day ever comes that it is the only way to guarantee the constitution is defended, I will stand my post.

Well again unfortunately if these people do not get this turned around I fear we will all be in a war.  I am hoping that these banks dont try to punish this country to badly if these guys pull it off because now days they know about wall street too and you know where they will head next.

On the other hand, when you spout off with the same thing over and over, even when it doesn't apply to the topic or subject being discussed, it only detracts from some of the message that you are trying to get across. Whether I agree with it or not, the message becomes lost when the messenger acts like a drunken crack addict with a stutter. Know what I mean?


No I dont.

A message is a message.

Flipping it changing it rewording it putting it upside down its the same message.

A message is not meant to be entertainment its meant to be seriously considered.

I mean serving papers on 50 govs with provost backing is huge and we may be looking major history in the making here.



Thadius -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 9:19:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

OK. Do you know of any left-wing white supremacist groups?

Glad that you asked. Hell, I am sure that Ken will even chime in on this one. For starters, we can simply look at the heart of the old Dem machine in Chicago, but that isn't particularly a group, it was more of a protect the neighborhoods kind of thing, Bridgeport, Brighton, and Canaryville. These were also big strongholds for the guys that like to wear their bed linens out and "light crosses". Heck, I even remember the nice big white fist with the words "White power" that was on display on the side of a red brick bank, right around the corner from "hiz honor" and the current mayor's homes. Shall we look at policy, and the great divide, or perhaps the reason that Rev. Jackson marched so many times on these neighborhoods? You should see some of the pictures of various alderman protesting the bussing in of minorities during the '70s, ah good times.

Of course, you do have all of the "anti-Zionist" groups. Those are mostly described as left-wing. Of course, one would also have to include socialists as being on the left, which would include the National Socialists.

Shall we move on to left-wing black supremacist groups?

My point is that bigots are bigots, and trying to tar the other side with the beliefs of these bigots is insane and only fuels the fire. Those that believe in anarchy don't want either side, left or right, to be in charge.

Bah, what does it matter... the rhetoric and vitriol will continue well past my being around to hear or read it.



Musicmystery -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 9:22:01 PM)

quote:

My point is that bigots are bigots, and trying to tar the other side with the beliefs of these bigots is insane and only fuels the fire. Those that believe in anarchy don't want either side, left or right, to be in charge.


Good point.



Thadius -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 9:24:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The "sovereign citizen" movement is a loosely organized collection of groups and individuals who have adopted a right-wing anarchist ideology originating in the theories of a group called the Posse Comitatus in the 1970s. Its adherents believe that virtually all existing government in the United States is illegitimate and they seek to "restore" an idealized, minimalist government that never actually existed. To this end, sovereign citizens wage war against the government and other forms of authority using "paper terrorism" harassment and intimidation tactics, and occasionally resorting to violence.


Just curious, what part of their beliefs makes them a "right-wing" group?

to start with their self identification. Then of course is their belief system.

They call them selves a right-wing group? Or is that the label that has been stuck on them by the ADL and other watchdog groups? Or is it that all groups that have "White-Supremacist" elements are right-wing?

I didn't realize anarchy was a right or left position. Guess I was wrong.[8|]

Guess you were. Why not try and make your case that the sovereign citizen, posse comitatus and christian identity movements (all hopelessly intertwined) are left wing. Of course you will have to deal with teh hole self identification thing with more than a handwave or is this simply your rather weak 'no true scotsman' complaint about them being called right wing.

So where in their writings do they declare themselves as being right-wing? I am suggesting that the asshats don't fall into either camp.



Real0ne -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 9:27:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Guess you were. Why not try and make your case that the sovereign citizen, posse comitatus and christian identity movements (all hopelessly intertwined) are left wing. Of course you will have to deal with teh hole self identification thing with more than a handwave or is this simply your rather weak 'no true scotsman' complaint about them being called right wing.


Do you even know what the posse commitatas act was about?  Now I know it completely tears you apart that those damn Christians are at it again and do you know why?  You can go into any court in this country and if you KNOW how to handle yourself and you KNOW the Christian law you can defend yourself.   There is NO higher law in this country.  Though I realize you want to destroy the essence of all law since its roots are in religion.



Silence8 -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 9:32:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

OK. Do you know of any left-wing white supremacist groups?


Of course, you do have all of the "anti-Zionist" groups. Those are mostly described as left-wing. Of course, one would also have to include socialists as being on the left, which would include the National Socialists.

Shall we move on to left-wing black supremacist groups?



The point is made that you have to go fishing. Also, I'm under the impression that National Socialists in the U.S. identify with the right, and are widely classified as being extreme right.



Real0ne -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 9:37:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

OK. Do you know of any left-wing white supremacist groups?


Of course, you do have all of the "anti-Zionist" groups. Those are mostly described as left-wing. Of course, one would also have to include socialists as being on the left, which would include the National Socialists.

Shall we move on to left-wing black supremacist groups?



The point is made that you have to go fishing. Also, I'm under the impression that National Socialists in the U.S. identify with the right, and are widely classified as being extreme right.


coming soon to a theator near you!


Political extremists in Sweden  are generally more violent than their counterparts in Denmark in Germany and Denmark, a new report shows.

   * Prosecutors under increasing threat: study (17 Jun 09)
   * Women in custody for beating of far-right politician (11 Jun 09)
   * Sweden's extreme left ups violent attacks (9 Jun 09)

The study, commissioned by the government and carried out jointly by the National Council on Crime Prevention (Brottsförebyggande rådet - Brå) and the Swedish security service Säpo, also found that groups on the right and the left in Sweden are equally prone to violence.

“Political violence is equally likely on both sides,” Säpo analyst Johan Olsson told Svergies Radio (SR).

“There is roughly as much politically motivated violence from autonomous groups [on the left] as in the white-power movement.”

He added, however, that groups on the right have more members with "experience in deadly violence and greater access to firearms and explosives".

While the size of Sweden’s political extremist movements is roughly the same of those found in Germany or Denmark when measured on a per capita basis, the report found that left- and right-wing groups in Sweden are more prone to violence.

Members of the Swedish white power movement, for example, have a greater tendency to arm themselves, while left-wing extremists in Sweden are more clearly focused on systematically attacking elected officials.

According to the report, political violence is a phenomenon most likely to be carried out by young people.

Of cases brought to court, the median age of those who commit political violence in Sweden is 20-years-old and none have involved crimes committed by anyone over the age of 25.

The report on violent political extremism and anti-democratic groups on the far-right and far-left was commissioned by the government in order to shed light on the problem and devise appropriate measures to prevent young people from engaging in political violence.



Real0ne -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 9:43:20 PM)




Do you or do you not support the laws of this country in that these guys have no authority to hold a public office in the public trust without swearing or affirming the oath to the constitution?

Simple question.



DomKen -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 10:06:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Guess you were. Why not try and make your case that the sovereign citizen, posse comitatus and christian identity movements (all hopelessly intertwined) are left wing. Of course you will have to deal with teh hole self identification thing with more than a handwave or is this simply your rather weak 'no true scotsman' complaint about them being called right wing.


Do you even know what the posse commitatas act was about?  Now I know it completely tears you apart that those damn Christians are at it again and do you know why?  You can go into any court in this country and if you KNOW how to handle yourself and you KNOW the Christian law you can defend yourself.   There is NO higher law in this country.  Though I realize you want to destroy the essence of all law since its roots are in religion.


Do you even know the difference between the Posse Comitatus Act and the racist violent groups that call themselves Posse Comitatus?

As to that christian law bullshit, you are simply wrong. If the US was based on Moasaic law then what are teh crimes for not honoring mothers and fathers? What is the criminal punishemnt for lusting after my neighbor's wife? Or maybe you meant the 600+ laws of Leviticus well i had shrimp for dinner Tuesday and don't seem to be facing indictment. Or maybe you meant the law according to the sermon on the mount? I missed where society simply 'turns the other cheek' when wronged.



DomKen -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 10:11:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

OK. Do you know of any left-wing white supremacist groups?

Glad that you asked. Hell, I am sure that Ken will even chime in on this one. For starters, we can simply look at the heart of the old Dem machine in Chicago, but that isn't particularly a group, it was more of a protect the neighborhoods kind of thing, Bridgeport, Brighton, and Canaryville. These were also big strongholds for the guys that like to wear their bed linens out and "light crosses". Heck, I even remember the nice big white fist with the words "White power" that was on display on the side of a red brick bank, right around the corner from "hiz honor" and the current mayor's homes. Shall we look at policy, and the great divide, or perhaps the reason that Rev. Jackson marched so many times on these neighborhoods? You should see some of the pictures of various alderman protesting the bussing in of minorities during the '70s, ah good times.

You just tried to equate all Democrats with being left of center. You know that is untrue or you've never actually met those people. IOW false equivalence.

You certainly have a valid point that bigots and hate groups can be of any political variety but the groups in question here are definitely right wing.



Real0ne -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/2/2010 11:18:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Guess you were. Why not try and make your case that the sovereign citizen, posse comitatus and christian identity movements (all hopelessly intertwined) are left wing. Of course you will have to deal with teh hole self identification thing with more than a handwave or is this simply your rather weak 'no true scotsman' complaint about them being called right wing.


Do you even know what the posse commitatas act was about?  Now I know it completely tears you apart that those damn Christians are at it again and do you know why?  You can go into any court in this country and if you KNOW how to handle yourself and you KNOW the Christian law you can defend yourself.   There is NO higher law in this country.  Though I realize you want to destroy the essence of all law since its roots are in religion.


Do you even know the difference between the Posse Comitatus Act and the racist violent groups that call themselves Posse Comitatus?

Well well now how about you list every one of these offenses you want to claim?  Find some nice jewish site that lumps them in with nazis and the kkk and and of course anyone who identifies as an evil Christian.  I cant wait!

As to that christian law bullshit, you are simply wrong. If the US was based on Moasaic law then what are teh crimes for not honoring mothers and fathers? What is the criminal punishemnt for lusting after my neighbor's wife? Or maybe you meant the 600+ laws of Leviticus well i had shrimp for dinner Tuesday and don't seem to be facing indictment. Or maybe you meant the law according to the sermon on the mount? I missed where society simply 'turns the other cheek' when wronged.


You really need to crack a book once in a while instead of focusing your efforts on all things anti-Christ.

If you go back you will find England has bishops on staff in the government and you see that same english common law is the law of the land here as much as that tears big holes in your wormy atheist anti-Christ heart.





Termyn8or -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/3/2010 12:54:15 AM)

"What these traitors are doing is trying to hold a coup and they're hoping the rest of us just go along. "

Wow. Just wow. I am speechless.

T



LadyEllen -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/3/2010 5:02:02 AM)

Real - the bishops are not on staff in the UK government; they sit as members of the House of Lords, the upper revising chamber of Parliament - for now, reform of the House has been underway for some time and is not yet completed, and its likely they shall be removed or reduced at the least so as to allow other faith representatives to take places in our multi-cultural experiment, even if the next reform is not to have the House elected.

As a small group in a chamber of some hundreds their influence is rarely relevant, though (spurred mainly by the African part of the Anglican Communion) they have recently gotten in the way of limiting social progress and civil rights for certain groups here. Ultimately the Lords have an advisory role - the Parliament Act makes the House of Commons supreme and legislation may not be blocked by the Lords.

E



Real0ne -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/3/2010 7:06:25 AM)



yeh that was actually a typo.  the s and d are to close together on my keyboard LOL

Either way they are leaving or wish to completely abandon the roots of law and replace it in commercial because you can get sucked into a commercial contract without even knowing you have one and it is very easy for governments to manipulate the average person into an invisible adhesion contract completely without their realizing it.

That wonderful unlawful health care bill, without even reading it once signed on these people lock on the collars.

Just naother layer to keep the chattel, well chattel.




Real0ne -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/3/2010 7:11:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"What these traitors are doing is trying to hold a coup and they're hoping the rest of us just go along. "

Wow. Just wow. I am speechless.

T


Yep!!!

I knew ken was an atheist but I didnt know he was a zionist.   I have to admit I was shocked to see that myslef.



mnottertail -> RE: FBI warns letters to governors could stir violence (4/3/2010 7:22:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne




Do you or do you not support the laws of this country in that these guys have no authority to hold a public office in the public trust without swearing or affirming the oath to the constitution?

Simple question.




Show me this law. I can only think of article 2 section 1 clause 8 offhand, in our constitution, as concerns the prez. (and there is an oath of allegiance required for aliens matriculating to citizenship.) It could be that it is customary or traditional for all other federal officers, but I don't see it as mandatory under our law.

Other than that this would be a states rights issue, where it would be up to each individual state whether or not an oath is required of any office holder in that state, and the oath's content and construction.





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