RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is.

RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (Full Version)

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Elisabella -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 7:25:59 PM)
This is actually really interesting.

thompsonx -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 7:32:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u "Talking" to you is like listening to a record while the needle is stuck in a groove...for the absolute last time I will try to get you to admit the obvious......Did there come a time when Hitler's general staff,including the General on the scene (Von Paulus) beg Hitler to allow those forces to quit Stalingrad,thereby escaping the pouch they were being "trapped"in....or not ? It's a simple question Tommie...don't duck it,don't evade it and don't answer one question with another question....just answer the damm thing.....did not Hitler order those troops to stay in place and to fight where they stood ...no surrender,no maneuver...just stand and fight and die ? As I answered previously the Germans were ordered to take Stalingrad and in trying they got their asses kicked. Now you want to make it something other than a defeat of the Germans by the Russians. You want the Russians to win by default. You want to deny the value of the Russian Army. You want to believe for some reason that the Germans were out for a picnic and got lost in a snow storm and the Russians found them half dead and starving and took them into custody. That ain't what happened mikey...What happened was that the German Army invaded Russia with arrogance and summer uniforms and when the Russians stripped them of their arrogance they burried them in their summer uniforms

slvemike4u -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 7:52:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u "Talking" to you is like listening to a record while the needle is stuck in a groove...for the absolute last time I will try to get you to admit the obvious......Did there come a time when Hitler's general staff,including the General on the scene (Von Paulus) beg Hitler to allow those forces to quit Stalingrad,thereby escaping the pouch they were being "trapped"in....or not ? It's a simple question Tommie...don't duck it,don't evade it and don't answer one question with another question....just answer the damm thing.....did not Hitler order those troops to stay in place and to fight where they stood ...no surrender,no maneuver...just stand and fight and die ? As I answered previously the Germans were ordered to take Stalingrad and in trying they got their asses kicked. Now you want to make it something other than a defeat of the Germans by the Russians. You want the Russians to win by default. You want to deny the value of the Russian Army. You want to believe for some reason that the Germans were out for a picnic and got lost in a snow storm and the Russians found them half dead and starving and took them into custody. That ain't what happened mikey...What happened was that the German Army invaded Russia with arrogance and summer uniforms and when the Russians stripped them of their arrogance they burried them in their summer uniforms Now how did you get all of that bullshit from the simple question that I asked? Once again,and really for the last time,did Hitler,against all military logic,deny those troops the ability/right/option of fighting their way out of the Stalingrad trap.....no editorializing,no spin,no tommie special sauce...a simple yes or no question. Either answer it or exhibit just how big an ass you are....your choice.

Icarys -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 8:06:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou http://www.collateralmurder.com/ edited to change wikileaks.com to .org It's a site set up by wikileaks.org showing a new or rather old video that they just got, that shows our military killing people, and even running over a corpse with a tank. Some of those shot were kids, and two journalists. There's what 1/3 + of your tax dollars is paying for, but let's just run up the debt, the military does such good work. But according to the military, this was an an okay military action. I think it's worth watching after all we are paying them to do this for us. Haven't read all of the replies and don't care to. What's sickening to me is the guys disregard for a human life. Almost like it was some video game he was playing. "Look at all those dead bodies" "Nice" WTF is that? Killing and having fun doing it? Makes a man proud of the work that's being done. The old "War is hell" excusing cliche and attitude doesn't cut it anymore for me. That being said: Was that not an RPG? If so..Sorry but I'd shot them too if I thought they were going to shoot at me.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 8:39:47 PM)
FR: thompson ... please ... pretty please ... spend some time in the "test" forum, and learn how to use the quote function? With sugar on top? [:)] Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 8:58:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff I believe the folks from Dresden could define carpet bombing for you As could the people of Tokyo. Did anything even remotely resembling Tokyo or Dresden happen in Brittian? Sure. Coventry. Quote from a BBC article: The German Official News Agency described the raid on Coventry as "the most severe in the whole history of the war". The bombing began at 1920 and did not cease until dawn. The all-clear was finally sounded at 0615 GMT. Firm

Real0ne -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 9:43:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou http://www.collateralmurder.com/ edited to change wikileaks.com to .org It's a site set up by wikileaks.org showing a new or rather old video that they just got, that shows our military killing people, and even running over a corpse with a tank. Some of those shot were kids, and two journalists. There's what 1/3 + of your tax dollars is paying for, but let's just run up the debt, the military does such good work. But according to the military, this was an an okay military action. I think it's worth watching after all we are paying them to do this for us. Haven't read all of the replies and don't care to. What's sickening to me is the guys disregard for a human life. Almost like it was some video game he was playing. "Look at all those dead bodies" "Nice" WTF is that? Killing and having fun doing it? Makes a man proud of the work that's being done. The old "War is hell" excusing cliche and attitude doesn't cut it anymore for me. That being said: Was that not an RPG? If so..Sorry but I'd shot them too if I thought they were going to shoot at me. yep thats the reall fucking sad part about all this is the complete disregard for life. We are breeding cold blooded murders in the name of "bringing domocracy" and civilization to the ME. fucking puke.

Silence8 -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 10:27:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub thats why they say war is hell.......it really really is. Did you watch the video? It's precisely the opposite. There's no immediate sense that 'our guys' were in the type of dangerous, tense situation to which the expression 'war is hell' is meant to apply. As other people have mentioned, there is a video-game feel to the whole thing, as well this weird dynamic where the soldiers apparently have to, as it were, 'ask permission' to 'engage'. Hell is other people, apparently.

domiguy -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 10:42:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff I believe the folks from Dresden could define carpet bombing for you As could the people of Tokyo. Did anything even remotely resembling Tokyo or Dresden happen in Brittian? Sure. Coventry. Quote from a BBC article: The German Official News Agency described the raid on Coventry as "the most severe in the whole history of the war". The bombing began at 1920 and did not cease until dawn. The all-clear was finally sounded at 0615 GMT. Firm The German Official news Agency must be comprised of morons to even begin to suggest what happened at Coventry was worse than what transpired at Dresden....Firm 'wiki" Dresden bombing and then get back and explain how the Coventry massacre compares to the 18,000 to 25,000 civilians that were incinerated at Dresden How can you confuse the 600 to 1,000 deaths that occurred during the fire bombing of Coventry to the 18 to 25k killed at Dresden. Wow.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 11:01:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: Jeffff I believe the folks from Dresden could define carpet bombing for you As could the people of Tokyo. Did anything even remotely resembling Tokyo or Dresden happen in Brittian? Sure. Coventry. Quote from a BBC article: The German Official News Agency described the raid on Coventry as "the most severe in the whole history of the war". The bombing began at 1920 and did not cease until dawn. The all-clear was finally sounded at 0615 GMT. Firm The German Official news Agency must be comprised of morons to even begin to suggest what happened at Coventry was worse than what transpired at Dresden....Firm 'wiki" Dresden bombing and then get back and explain how the Coventry massacre compares to the 18,000 to 25,000 civilians that were incinerated at Dresden How can you confuse the 600 to 1,000 deaths that occurred during the fire bombing of Coventry to the 18 to 25k killed at Dresden. Wow. domi, Two things: 1. The historical timing of events is everything, and 2. I was answering thompson's "remotely resembling" question. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/6/2010 11:05:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub thats why they say war is hell.......it really really is. Did you watch the video? It's precisely the opposite. There's no immediate sense that 'our guys' were in the type of dangerous, tense situation to which the expression 'war is hell' is meant to apply. As other people have mentioned, there is a video-game feel to the whole thing, as well this weird dynamic where the soldiers apparently have to, as it were, 'ask permission' to 'engage'. Hell is other people, apparently. The "Hell" is people who don't understand anything about the physical and moral stress of war other than what they see in the movies, and on TV, and then extrapolate moral indifference when they are confronted with a small, deceiving edited and presented window into the reality. Firm

Silence8 -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/7/2010 12:02:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub thats why they say war is hell.......it really really is. Did you watch the video? It's precisely the opposite. There's no immediate sense that 'our guys' were in the type of dangerous, tense situation to which the expression 'war is hell' is meant to apply. As other people have mentioned, there is a video-game feel to the whole thing, as well this weird dynamic where the soldiers apparently have to, as it were, 'ask permission' to 'engage'. Hell is other people, apparently. The "Hell" is people who don't understand anything about the physical and moral stress of war other than what they see in the movies, and on TV, and then extrapolate moral indifference when they are confronted with a small, deceiving edited and presented window into the reality. Firm I'm not for these wars, which I think is on some level one of the more consistent ways to 'support one's troops'. By many accounts, this video actually is not that exceptional, in this sense that many believe this reflects an everyday reality. Trillions of dollars and counting. Military -- the only 'business' that's always hiring.

Politesub53 -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/7/2010 2:11:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy The German Official news Agency must be comprised of morons to even begin to suggest what happened at Coventry was worse than what transpired at Dresden....Firm 'wiki" Dresden bombing and then get back and explain how the Coventry massacre compares to the 18,000 to 25,000 civilians that were incinerated at Dresden How can you confuse the 600 to 1,000 deaths that occurred during the fire bombing of Coventry to the 18 to 25k killed at Dresden. Wow. You miss Firms point Domi. Just because there were not as many deaths, its doesnt detract from the fact that Coventry was carpet bombed. As for the article quoted, it was 100% correct when it was written, which was some 5 years before Dresden was attacked.

Icarys -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/7/2010 2:25:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub thats why they say war is hell.......it really really is. Did you watch the video? It's precisely the opposite. There's no immediate sense that 'our guys' were in the type of dangerous, tense situation to which the expression 'war is hell' is meant to apply. As other people have mentioned, there is a video-game feel to the whole thing, as well this weird dynamic where the soldiers apparently have to, as it were, 'ask permission' to 'engage'. Hell is other people, apparently. The "Hell" is people who don't understand anything about the physical and moral stress of war other than what they see in the movies, and on TV, and then extrapolate moral indifference when they are confronted with a small, deceiving edited and presented window into the reality. Firm No this is yet another bullshit excusing line of thinking..We can't understand because we aren't there? I don't need to be there..Did they edit the words in their mouths? How about the disregard for human life that was apparent in the use of their words. Give me a break.

LadyEllen -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/7/2010 2:45:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen The nazis didnt "carpet bomb" Britain in any sense that we might understand. They launched concentrated air raids on key targets - factories, dockyards and so on. And even then, if you compare the bomb load of the Heinkel and Junkers aircraft used by the nazis with that of allied aircraft, you will see that it wasnt simply numbers of aircraft that made the difference between 1940-41 over Britain and 1943-45 over Germany. Its a "funny old story" all in all, starting with the Parliament of the UK (Conservative) seeing real ethical problems with bombing German factories and facilities since they were private property, would you believe it? Interesting that you dont see mass bombing raids on London as carpet bombing. I am also unsure why you think the coalition government during the war was Conservative ? Its a good thing youre at least a two hour drive from here.......... The raids on London, Coventry, Liverpool et al were not carpet bombing "in any sense that we might understand". They were concentrated raids designed to destroy specific targets, not to destroy a general area; the nazis lacked the numbers of aircraft and the bombload capacities to achieve the latter because their airforce was set up for blitzkrieg not for strategic bombing campaigns. That civilians were killed is obvious, but they were incidental to the affair, whilst a few years later when the US flew by day and we by night, our goal was to both destroy targets and undermine German morale and ability to resist by killing civilians. The next part you quote is the start of the story I went on to tell - it does say so. According to my history books, we declared war on 3rd September 1939, at which time a Conservative government was running the country and did until the progress of the war turned from dire to disastrous. At that point there was a vote of no confidence in the Commons, leading to Churchill being given the job of PM (as a poisoned chalice at the time some would say), leading to a coalition cabinet and government that dragged in industrialists, newspapermen and union leaders as well as politicians. This lasted into 1945, when Churchill famously lost the election and Labour took power on a manifesto to start work on the UK we know today. E

Icarys -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/7/2010 3:16:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen The nazis didnt "carpet bomb" Britain in any sense that we might understand. They launched concentrated air raids on key targets - factories, dockyards and so on. And even then, if you compare the bomb load of the Heinkel and Junkers aircraft used by the nazis with that of allied aircraft, you will see that it wasnt simply numbers of aircraft that made the difference between 1940-41 over Britain and 1943-45 over Germany. Its a "funny old story" all in all, starting with the Parliament of the UK (Conservative) seeing real ethical problems with bombing German factories and facilities since they were private property, would you believe it? Interesting that you dont see mass bombing raids on London as carpet bombing. I am also unsure why you think the coalition government during the war was Conservative ? Its a good thing youre at least a two hour drive from here.......... The raids on London, Coventry, Liverpool et al were not carpet bombing "in any sense that we might understand". They were concentrated raids designed to destroy specific targets, not to destroy a general area; the nazis lacked the numbers of aircraft and the bombload capacities to achieve the latter because their airforce was set up for blitzkrieg not for strategic bombing campaigns. That civilians were killed is obvious, but they were incidental to the affair, whilst a few years later when the US flew by day and we by night, our goal was to both destroy targets and undermine German morale and ability to resist by killing civilians. The next part you quote is the start of the story I went on to tell - it does say so. According to my history books, we declared war on 3rd September 1939, at which time a Conservative government was running the country and did until the progress of the war turned from dire to disastrous. At that point there was a vote of no confidence in the Commons, leading to Churchill being given the job of PM (as a poisoned chalice at the time some would say), leading to a coalition cabinet and government that dragged in industrialists, newspapermen and union leaders as well as politicians. This lasted into 1945, when Churchill famously lost the election and Labour took power on a manifesto to start work on the UK we know today. E This has nothing to do with the specific topic.

FirmhandKY -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/7/2010 6:26:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: domiguy The German Official news Agency must be comprised of morons to even begin to suggest what happened at Coventry was worse than what transpired at Dresden....Firm 'wiki" Dresden bombing and then get back and explain how the Coventry massacre compares to the 18,000 to 25,000 civilians that were incinerated at Dresden How can you confuse the 600 to 1,000 deaths that occurred during the fire bombing of Coventry to the 18 to 25k killed at Dresden. Wow. You miss Firms point Domi. Just because there were not as many deaths, its doesnt detract from the fact that Coventry was carpet bombed. As for the article quoted, it was 100% correct when it was written, which was some 5 years before Dresden was attacked. Spot on, polite. Firm

FirmhandKY -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/7/2010 6:38:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Icarys quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub thats why they say war is hell.......it really really is. Did you watch the video? It's precisely the opposite. There's no immediate sense that 'our guys' were in the type of dangerous, tense situation to which the expression 'war is hell' is meant to apply. As other people have mentioned, there is a video-game feel to the whole thing, as well this weird dynamic where the soldiers apparently have to, as it were, 'ask permission' to 'engage'. Hell is other people, apparently. The "Hell" is people who don't understand anything about the physical and moral stress of war other than what they see in the movies, and on TV, and then extrapolate moral indifference when they are confronted with a small, deceiving edited and presented window into the reality. Firm No this is yet another bullshit excusing line of thinking..We can't understand because we aren't there? I don't need to be there..Did they edit the words in their mouths? How about the disregard for human life that was apparent in the use of their words. Give me a break. No. I didn't say that you can't understand because you weren't there. I said: 1. "people who don't understand anything about the physical and moral stress of war other than what they see in the movies, and on TV" This means that he was likely ignorant (a correctable condition) of the training for, and short and long term effects of the type of stress these people endure. He doesn't had to have served: he does have to have more than a modicum of understanding of life in extermis. 2. "extrapolate moral indifference" Because that is what some are doing. "Extrapolate" means to infer by extending knowledge. Since there is already a lack of basic knowledge, attempting to extend that knowledge will tend to error. 3. "with a small, deceiving edited and presented window into the reality" As has been mentioned already, the video and it's presentation is designed to maximize the damage to certain parties. In otherwords, it's propaganda, regardless of how much "truth" it may contain. It's designed and presented to assist you in forming the "correct" opinion. Instead of looking for "a bullshit" excuse to throw rancor and dissent with your morally superior, smug attitude, perhaps you should consider that the slight possibility exists that you (and some of your compatriots) are indeed ignorant of, and inexperienced in some of the things you debate. Firm

Sanity -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/7/2010 8:02:18 AM)
Your comments are always tongue in cheek, aren't they? But only after someone calls you on them. quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub OMG....he went to the "Sanity School of Illogic and Misdirection While Trying to Stay on Point Where There is None" Put that diploma in your pipe and smoke it! quote: ORIGINAL: brainiacsub Sweetheart, I am well read in many aspects of economics...my comment was tongue-in-cheek. But for the record, most of the Conservatives who discuss economics on these forums studied at the Palin School of Read it From My Palm.

Sanity -> RE: Suprised no one posted the new video of our military murdering Iraqis. Here it is. (4/7/2010 8:19:29 AM)
Here's some interesting reading on this case, with report transcripts and pictures and video: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/201889.php

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