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[Poll]

Valued Added Tax Solution


YES - I would support replacing the Tax Code with a 20% VAT
  42% (14)
NO - I do not support replacing the Tax Code with a 20% VAT.
  57% (19)


Total Votes : 33
(last vote on : 4/10/2010 5:59:28 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 5:38:18 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		why the big rush to BECOME Europe?

Europe is just as insolvent as the USA.

Come on people- .... I mean debt slaves!

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 7:04:16 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The entire system should be scrapped and replaced with a 'flat tax'..Right now the top 10% of the wage earners pay 73% of the federal income tax. 47% of Americans pay nothing. Something has to give.


So your plan is to tax the poor to give to the rich?

You do know, don't you, that the poor don't have money? That was the problem with feudalism.

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 7:37:08 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The entire system should be scrapped and replaced with a 'flat tax'..Right now the top 10% of the wage earners pay 73% of the federal income tax. 47% of Americans pay nothing. Something has to give.


So your plan is to tax the poor to give to the rich?

You do know, don't you, that the poor don't have money? That was the problem with feudalism.
Servant is just a poor deluded retired working man...who must have convinced himself that he will win the lottery tomorrow....so he wants to get a jump on espousing the party line of a class he doesn't now and will nevr belong to.
How does the Republican Party hoodwink these poor slobs?

_____________________________

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(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 7:45:41 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The entire system should be scrapped and replaced with a 'flat tax'..Right now the top 10% of the wage earners pay 73% of the federal income tax. 47% of Americans pay nothing. Something has to give.


So your plan is to tax the poor to give to the rich?

You do know, don't you, that the poor don't have money? That was the problem with feudalism.

I have heard the idea dabbled with over the years, and if you exempted anybody making under $20k from the tax we would still bring in more revenue than we do currently, because there would be no more loopholes for the uber rich to hide income. With the added revenues, we could pay down the debt, or even help fund some better food assistance programs, or better yet a little of both.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 7:48:24 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Thadius,

I agree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I don't know about a complete replacement, but I have long advocated a VAT.

It is regressive. But it encourages savings while taxing ability to pay (by self-selection), and circumvents the online sales tax issue.

Definitely for. Lose property taxes.


Could you please explain that green sentence? I am trying so hard to comprehend exactly what this tax would mean, and I swear I do not consider me to be an idiot (most days anyhow), but I do not get what that sentence says at all.

OK.

Regressive means that poorer people would (arguably) pay a higher percentage of their income on taxes (the opposite of income taxes, which are progressive--the rates get higher as income rises), since a larger part of their income must be spent. Of course, food and clothing and other more necessary items could be excluded to help this. Sales taxes, similarly, are regressive.

For people with higher incomes--the law of demand suggests that with a higher price (the VAT added), people will demand fewer goods (sales tax does the same thing). But, unlike income tax, if you save instead of spend, you are rewarded, essentially, with a "tax break"--i.e., an incentive to save. The U.S. has a negative savings rate, so this would help. This also means only people with money to spend, and that they wish to spend (in the broadest sense), would pay the tax--i.e., those best able to pay.

Sales taxes run into a snag with online sales--out of state sales are exempt (in most places--laws are changing). This means the buyer is supposed to pay, but, of course, doesn't. Forcing an out of state seller to do so is impractical (though states are trying). Sales of goods on Indian reservations are also legally subject to taxes for non-native buyers, but enforcing this too is difficult, costing billions in lost revenue. A VAT, however, is paid before the goods ever hit the wholesalers, bypassing all the later collection issues.

In short, it's a more efficient means for collecting revenue, even at current effective tax rates.





(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 8:04:19 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

NO!!!
Anyone who "wants" a tax is sick.


You have sugested a tax on marijuana...
You sick phoque

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 8:42:28 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The entire system should be scrapped and replaced with a 'flat tax'..Right now the top 10% of the wage earners pay 73% of the federal income tax. 47% of Americans pay nothing. Something has to give.


So your plan is to tax the poor to give to the rich?

You do know, don't you, that the poor don't have money? That was the problem with feudalism.

I have heard the idea dabbled with over the years, and if you exempted anybody making under $20k from the tax we would still bring in more revenue than we do currently, because there would be no more loopholes for the uber rich to hide income. With the added revenues, we could pay down the debt, or even help fund some better food assistance programs, or better yet a little of both.


Rather than exempt, which would require people to monitor, just refund at the end of the year according to income...simple and requires few people. I would only exempt food for everyone through the year.

Simple is better always.

Butch


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(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 8:44:44 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Rather than exempt, which would require people to monitor


Why?

If a good is exempt, it isn't taxed. Why would it need monitors?

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 8:44:58 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		A refund system would require paperwork and IRS workers... defeating much of the purpose as i see it.

_____________________________

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Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 8:48:38 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

A refund system would require paperwork and IRS workers... defeating much of the purpose as i see it.


You just send everyone a check every month, regardless of need that would cover all taxes to the poverty level. You offset that by upping the sales tax percentage, from 20 for instance to 20 plus x percent.

You don't need the IRS.

edited to add, except to monitor the distribution of goods to make sure they weren't being diverted, but that is a much more containable problem than monitoring every individual, and corporation.


< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 4/8/2010 8:50:48 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 8:50:29 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Why collect a tax on a non-taxed good only to refund it?

Why not just not collect a tax on it in the first place? That takes zero workers and zero paperwork.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 8:50:53 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		A better way would work for employers to know the baseline for exemption and send off to the government what each person owes. Its already done for Medicare, Federal and State, along with a slew of other taxes.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 8:52:12 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		oops, sorry Master Tim. i think we may be discussing two different tax systems.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 8:54:42 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why collect a tax on a non-taxed good only to refund it?

Why not just not collect a tax on it in the first place? That takes zero workers and zero paperwork.


I'm probably guilty of thread jumping.

But I'm saying if the government says an individual requires 1500 a month to survive, and taxes were 20% at the store, then you just send everyone a check for that amount of taxes. Essentially whatever we agree we should be able to consume tax free, you simply refund everyone that amount of taxation.

So, I mean, like instead of just saying all food is tax free, you'd say 1500 a month is tax free, and be done with it. If someone wants to gorge on 10000 calories a day, well, they'll be paying taxes on some of it.



(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 8:56:23 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I recall a few states that have no taxes on food, some dont have any on clothing. Not sure what your objection to that is.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 8:56:44 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		You don't understand, then, how a VAT works.

It isn't paid at the store. It's paid in production.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 9:00:08 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You don't understand, then, how a VAT works.

It isn't paid at the store. It's paid in production.

Yep, at every stage of it. Or as its name suggests as value is added to the product, which means it is a compounded tax, and is included in the sale price of the product, on which some folks would then also have to pay state, county, or local sales tax.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 9:01:31 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		hi Master Tim, Master Thadius

i admit i dont know much about this tax. Could either of you give me an example of how it would work, on a product of your chosing, please??

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 9:02:24 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I recall a few states that have no taxes on food, some dont have any on clothing. Not sure what your objection to that is.


Under a VAT only system, yeah, I'd have a problem if all food were untaxed, and all clothing were untaxed.

If you understand what I'm saying it is simply that the first x dollars a month you spend a month would be prebated to you, according to whatever the government dictated was required to live to the poverty line. So, you if lived frugally would not be paying taxes on your clothes or food. However, if you live on Frozen dinners and have a NIKE fetish, more than likely you'd exceed the prebate amount, thus enter taxable spending.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/8/2010 9:03:28 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You don't understand, then, how a VAT works.

It isn't paid at the store. It's paid in production.


Yeah, I'm getting it confused with the fair tax thing. hehe. blush.



(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 60
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