RE: Valued Added Tax Solution

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[Poll]

Valued Added Tax Solution

YES - I would support replacing the Tax Code with a 20% VAT

42% (14)

NO - I do not support replacing the Tax Code with a 20% VAT.

57% (19)

Total Votes : 33

(last vote on : 4/10/2010 5:59:28 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

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RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/9/2010 2:53:05 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
Oh certainly Merc it merits examination. You are pointing to the idea that the Fair Tax, like any other consumption tax is going to be regressive to some extent.

Where that regressiveness really starts and ends is certainly something that can be debated.

Does it start when the first reasonable sized group of folks don't spend everything they make? (some will say that is the point where everything under that is pretty equal)

Which gets to the fundamental point and reason I would get behind and support either if done as a replacement revenue strategy. Now we all can relate to spending everything we make, but we only have that perspective because we've been indoctrinated to accepting that before what we've earned gets to us, the government has already taken theirs.

Then once there - our 'net' is subjected to more levels of taxation ranging from fees for services, to direct taxation on 'necessity' items such as gasoline.

It so happens that today is 'Tax Freedom Day'. Tax Freedom Day marks the point in the year at which U.S. citizens have worked enough to pay all their tax obligations for the current year. The tab includes federal, state and local taxes. Imagine we've worked over four months before working for ourselves. It brings the idea of 'indentured servitude' into the modern age.

In both VAT and 'Fair Tax' at least the money passes though the hands of those who earned it; giving them more of an opportunity to include personal goals into the options of where, and how, to spend it. Or better yet where not to spend it; as you point out, I'd agree and expect, people will save more.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 4/9/2010 2:56:04 PM >

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RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/9/2010 3:27:58 PM

Fellow

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Sorry, I did not read all the post. Perhaps everything has been said already. I just wanted to argue against VAT as the major form of taxation. In 2006 Citigroup published an economic review that has recently gained some attention. They tried to explain some new phenomena like why high gasoline prices did not hurt the economy hard. Their major thesis was that economic growth in the US is powered and consumed by a wealthy few. (Such economy was called "Plutonomy").
In 2005 bottom 50% Americans earned 12.8% of all income. Since this number has been reduced further. As 50% bottom do not pay income taxes VAT would effectively tax them at 20% rate as they spend all they earn. Seemingly the top 50% would win as they will pay less now. Although, it is not so straightforward. My guess is, it would actually reduce the top 50% income due to economic factors. The rich make most of income from capital gains that is driven by consumption. Money in government hands moves in different ways and part of the direct consumption would be reduced. For example G. Bush handed out some tax money to boost the economy. The "moral" point of view suggesting people are using services they do not pay for is incorrect way of thinking. Bottom income earners ("working poor") are slaves and their basic necessities need to be taken care of. 20% extra tax could push them over the edge and create problems. Slave owners in the past did not require extra work for using a toilet or walking on the road.

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Post #: 122

RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/9/2010 4:25:58 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It's slamming a flat tax into a pseudo-progressive mold.

It addresses the regressive part on the poor end, but leaves it at the wealthy end. Why do you think Steve Forbes is for a Flat Tax?

A VAT impacts only those who spend. Sheltering income doesn't let one avoid it. The only dodge is not spending, and in a nation with such poor savings, that's not a bad thing either.

Exempting necessities helps the poor. The rest are paying what they themselves have decided they can afford to spend.

I'd like to see it replace much of the income tax, all property taxes, and most sales taxes.

I don't quite see your point here...I am not for a flat tax but a sales based tax ...I do not believe they are even close to the same thing.

Butch

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RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/9/2010 4:32:37 PM

pahunkboy

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Butch, it looks and quacks like a duck.

Any tax scheme is to be highly suspect. !!!

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Post #: 124

RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/9/2010 4:41:16 PM

kdsub

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Roger it would be great not to pay taxes but not practical...it must be done so why not make it simple, fair, and easily administered?

Anything is better than the mess we have now.

Butch

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Post #: 125

RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/9/2010 6:26:58 PM

variation30

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From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Such a system is too filled with confusion. Its simpler, easier and in the best interest of all to maintain a public fire department, along with other such services. As much as you may not like the idea, some taxes will continue to be the norm.

'such a system' is what provides you with shoes, exterminators for bugs, lightbulbs, delivered pizza, etc.

how would all of these be simpler and easier if they were public?

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Post #: 126

RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/9/2010 6:30:20 PM

variation30

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

if tax money does not cover a government's agenda they will either borrow the rest of the money or create it. so if taxes are not required for a government to carry on, why have them? why not just let the government borrow or print all the money it wants to play around with and let the citizens keep the fruits of their labor.

Because no one would loan to such a government.

give it a while and no one will loan money to our government.

and then it will be time to print.

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Post #: 127

RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/9/2010 6:33:29 PM

variation30

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From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

The Fair Tax is Flat Tax Lite. It's a huge tax cut for the wealthy.

VAT, however, based on spending, targets those with cash to blow.

And if they save and invest instead, also good.

taking away incentives for people to trade is always a good way to make people prosperous.

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Post #: 128

RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/9/2010 7:22:58 PM

thornhappy

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How did they handle mutual aid?

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30
when the fire departments in america were privatized, what they would do is respond to fires. if the house paid the fire department for their services (which they did monthly, I believe), they were given a fire badge to put on their house. if the property had a fire badge, they would put it out. if it didn't, well - they didn't, unless the owner was present and offered to pay. they managed to do this in the mid 19th century, do you think that entrepreneurs would be incapable of privately providing fire services today (and what is more, doing a better job that municipal fire departments)?

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Post #: 129

RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/9/2010 8:54:43 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Such a system is too filled with confusion. Its simpler, easier and in the best interest of all to maintain a public fire department, along with other such services. As much as you may not like the idea, some taxes will continue to be the norm.

'such a system' is what provides you with shoes, exterminators for bugs, lightbulbs, delivered pizza, etc.

how would all of these be simpler and easier if they were public?

I cant believe this has to be pointed out to you... but i guess it does.

None of those things you listed are required. They are all things we want, but not what we need. Police are needed to protect. Fire Departments are needed to put out fires. EMT's and Ambulances are needed to help the sick or injured.

When you privatize "needed" services, we end up with the mess we have with the health care system.

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RE: Valued Added Tax Solution - 4/10/2010 3:05:39 AM

pahunkboy

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Everything is made to fall apart- Cheap crap-- so when the widget- one with value- then deflates value- then do I get a tax rebate?

I mean that one wash machine lasted for 2 month.,, had to be replaces as to fix it that price was high.

How about the toilet brush that snapped? (3rd one in a month)

With the "quality" "value" we have 2010, they ought to be paying us.

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