Valued Added Tax Solution (Full Version)

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Valued Added Tax Solution


YES - I would support replacing the Tax Code with a 20% VAT
  42% (14)
NO - I do not support replacing the Tax Code with a 20% VAT.
  57% (19)


Total Votes : 33
(last vote on : 4/10/2010 5:59:28 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message


Mercnbeth -> Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 9:24:56 AM)

Often, usually when cornered and the 'good intent' or '...think of the children' last resort arguments are employed concerning all the money wasted on entitlement programs, the accusations take on "...well you use the roads!", "...you have police and/or fire protection!", etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. More surrender than argument, but it happens.

However, its come to my attention that almost half of my fellow Americans don't pay one penny in income tax!

Tax Day is a dreaded deadline for millions, but for nearly half of U.S. households it's simply somebody else's problem.

About 47 percent will pay no federal income taxes at all for 2009. Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability. That's according to projections by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research organization.


Well hell - do these people use the roads? Are they protected by the police and fire departments? Yeah - police & fire are local, but few, if any, States and local municipalities are not receiving any Federal Funds.

Once at a zero tax base - the comfort in knowing that contributing nothing enables you to consider only one half of the budgetary formula, you want more entitlements and free stuff! Similar to the mortgage crisis; "Yeah, I know I over bought and now can't afford my house; but those who didn't overextend have money - I want it used to pay my mortgage payment!"

The VAT is the solution to this situation. Although the first step would be to change the name. There is no 'value', at least under current conditions, in the government's social and economic redistributions programs. Also, the VAT would have to replace and not be an add-on additional source of revenue. It would be the primary, or only source outside tariffs, permits, and access fees, to generate tax revenue.

Eliminate the entire Federal income tax code on both Corporations and individuals and replace it with a 20% VAT. No exemptions, no deductions, and each and every operating entity and individual subject to paying it for each item purchased. The Corporate Jet - my next door neighbors 'VOX Mansion' listed 'Reduced to $5.5 Million', a gallon of gas, the Oxtail needed or oxtail soup; all subject to a 20% federal tax.

No filing, no cheating, no deductions; it will separate the charitable from the pragmatic when it comes to donations. It will eliminate the envy projected toward those 'tax deductable' business trips to Europe and the Vegas corporate conventions. Every penny spent would not be taken from government revenue, just the opposite - it would generate more. Who knows - manybe even enough to pay for a real national health program.

The only problem I see would be the 'underground' ecconomy. The crack dealer somehow wouldn't collect let alone send, 20% of his sales to the Fed; however he's not doing it now anyway. I guess a controversal correlary of this would be to eliminate the transfer of assets by paper or coinage and set up a National debit card - but that may be too Orwelian.

If it works - exend it locally; 1% at the State level, a fraction of a percentage at the local municipalities. No more RE taxes would offset the panic which would insue in the RE market when mortgage interest was no longer deductible.

Granted, this is purely an academic debate; Just the threat of implementing this would result in a 'Million Man March' on Washington formed by Attorneys, and Tax Accountants, and members of Congress who would lose a good portion of the special interest PAC money.

However, for personal curiosity if nothing else, are you willing to level the playing field for tax revenue? I think the handicap on the accompanying poll to have the 'NO' side favored by 47% representing the number of people not paying a penny now. I doubt they will all of a sudden decide to be altruistic and want to pay for their use of roads, police and fire. They just want their "fair share". The problem is, how do you distribute a fair share of $0.00?


PS - More interesting news on the economic front today:
The Labor Department said Thursday that first-time claims increased by 18,000 in the week ended April 3, to a seasonally adjusted 460,000. That's worse than economists' estimates of a drop to 435,000, according to a survey by Thomson Reuters. Imagine what it would have been if a few hundred thousand of census workers weren't hired.

Here's a solution - take the census every year and make those government employees permanent and give them all bureaucratic assistants and supervisors. Oh yeah right - that would require even more tax revenue from he dwindling group of 53% paying, and wouldn't net to any more revenue coming into the Federal coffers.

I makes me wonder if the Administration and Congress is aware of this when they pointed to a positive trend after all these temporary government employees came on-line during the last unemployment period?




pahunkboy -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 9:34:55 AM)

Merc,

Do you really think it is one or the other?

Come on now.  We would be stuck with BOTH.




Thadius -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 9:51:21 AM)

While I understand the concept, I highly doubt that our wise government would give up the income based system for the VAT, they would probably try a combination of both.

I might be more in favor of a fed sales tax, that way we aren't compounding the tax that is put on an individual product at each and every level of its manufacture and delivery.

I have seen some talk in the past of a flat tax rate, and that seems pretty easy to setup and implement. No deductions, no loopholes, no credits, just a flat 12-15% across the board for all folks in the country. Just think of the money we could save by getting rid of all of the IRS folks with a system like that.

Again, I am not so sure how academic this discussion is, in light of Volkers comments this week. Overall, I am open to anything that will make the system easier to figure out on both sides of the tax (collector and payer), while still generating revenue without punishing success.





brainiacsub -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:00:53 AM)

I voted yes for the VAT.

Here is a brief discussion of the topic if anyone is interested:

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/02/28/gps.take.tax.cnn




cpK69 -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:03:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


However, its come to my attention that almost half of my fellow Americans don't pay one penny in income tax!



Ahhh, yes. The privilege of existing at just above poverty level.

It’s a tough job, but someone has got to do it.

Capitalism; don’t ya just love it?!?

Kim




variation30 -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:05:34 AM)

I'd rather not have to pay taxes at all.




tazzygirl -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:11:37 AM)

i have long been a proponent of a flat tax, Master Thadius.

No muss, no fuss, easy deduction from all profits/payroll/capital gains, everyone pays above poverty level. No irs forms, no income tax statements.

quote:

The President's fiscal year 2010 budget request for IRS of $12.1 billion is a 5.2 percent increase of $603 million over the fiscal year 2009 appropriation,


If everyone, including corporations (many who did not pay taxes) would pay a flat rate of 10%, getting rid of the special tax write offs, no more special deductions for the rich, ect... the cost savings would be quickly realized.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:12:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpK69
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
However, its come to my attention that almost half of my fellow Americans don't pay one penny in income tax!

Ahhh, yes. The privilege of existing at just above poverty level.

It’s a tough job, but someone has got to do it.

Capitalism; don’t ya just love it?!?

Kim

a family of four making as much as $50,000 will owe no federal income tax for 2009

$50,000 income for a family of four now represents "The privilege of existing at just above the poverty level."!

Entitlements and economic redistribution; "don't ya just love it?!?






tazzygirl -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:12:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

I'd rather not have to pay taxes at all.


Obviously you would rather not have police services, fire departments, 911 services or a host of others taxes pay for.




pahunkboy -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:16:07 AM)

Ron Paul will replace the IRS with "nothing"




BeingChewsie -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:17:48 AM)

We have been for a flat tax for years. We'd support a 20% VAT and do away with income and corporate taxes. It won't happen here though. You hit the nail on the head, the tax attorneys, accountants and IRS workers would pitch the largest hissy fit ever over it. We don't have leadership that has the balls it would take to institute a VAT or Flat tax in place of the current system. I'd love to see the VAT used to pay for health care then -everyone- has to pay in.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:18:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

a family of four making as much as $50,000 will owe no federal income tax for 2009

$50,000 income for a family of four now represents "The privilege of existing at just above the poverty level."!

Entitlements and economic redistribution; "don't ya just love it?!?





all i saw on that link was info about how unemployment is going up again.....????




NeedToUseYou -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:21:40 AM)

I would be in favor of such a tax, as long as there is the stipulation, that the tax only applies to first purchase items, as in if you buy a new car, you would pay the tax on the new car, however, when you sold the car later as used, you wouldn't pay a tax on that sale.

The reasoning behind such is that in theory, the original purchaser already paid for the strain, of that car on the infrastructure, etc... and promoting extended use of existing product, is healthy for the economy, environment, and encourages less incentive to a throw away economy.

As in if you bought a new kenmore wash dryer combo for a 1000.00 but then paid 200.00 in taxes for it. Well now that combo is worth 1200.00, which should manifest in the resale value to some degree. Well, now that the value is poofed up a bit, it makes the incentive to fix the thing all the greater, or the reward for someone fixing it and putting it up for sale the greater. As the tax would allow you to sell the used version for more, instead of selling a used version for 400.00, you might now eek out 500.00, the difference between 400.00 and 500.00 is huge when considering whether something is worth fixing or not.

Anyway, that's my view.. as tax should only be applied once to any item, ever, including property, IMO.




variation30 -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:24:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Obviously you would rather not have police services, fire departments, 911 services or a host of others taxes pay for.


I would prefer to be able to choose which services I would like and pay for those and choose which services I feel I could do without and not pay for those.

there is no service provided by the government which could not be provided privately.




pahunkboy -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:25:12 AM)

Please paypal me- the value added-  RE this thread.




cpK69 -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:30:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

a family of four making as much as $50,000 will owe no federal income tax for 2009

$50,000 income for a family of four now represents "The privilege of existing at just above the poverty level."!

Entitlements and economic redistribution; "don't ya just love it?!?






Actually, I was speaking of myself; the only one I feel comfortable speaking for.

We’re talking about half of that, for a family of three.

Entitlements and redistribution? They’re already asking for blood, and throwing boiled chicken bones at me for my troubles, Merc; under present circumstances, I don’t have anything to spare.

Kim




tazzygirl -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:31:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Obviously you would rather not have police services, fire departments, 911 services or a host of others taxes pay for.


I would prefer to be able to choose which services I would like and pay for those and choose which services I feel I could do without and not pay for those.

there is no service provided by the government which could not be provided privately.



Lets say you prefer not to pay for an ambulance service. Then you discover you need one. One is available, but not to you because you made the decision not to support them. Do you honestly think in an ermergency they will look up your name and see if you have the right to utilize such a service?

LOL.. and since you are in Canada, sort of makes this discussion with you moot. I find those who are incredibly young tend to have your point of view. Its that belief of invincibility that really makes me laugh.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:36:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

a family of four making as much as $50,000 will owe no federal income tax for 2009

$50,000 income for a family of four now represents "The privilege of existing at just above the poverty level."!

Entitlements and economic redistribution; "don't ya just love it?!?


all i saw on that link was info about how unemployment is going up again.....????

Whoops - amended, I incorrectly linked the second article to the quote. Fixed! Thanks!

And yes - unemployment is actually up - eliminate the census workers from the only business hiring - the government - and the reality behind the numbers is clear, even without accounting for the 'underemployed'.




variation30 -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:48:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Lets say you prefer not to pay for an ambulance service. Then you discover you need one. One is available, but not to you because you made the decision not to support them. Do you honestly think in an ermergency they will look up your name and see if you have the right to utilize such a service?


when the fire departments in america were privatized, what they would do is respond to fires. if the house paid the fire department for their services (which they did monthly, I believe), they were given a fire badge to put on their house. if the property had a fire badge, they would put it out. if it didn't, well - they didn't, unless the owner was present and offered to pay. they managed to do this in the mid 19th century, do you think that entrepreneurs would be incapable of privately providing fire services  today (and what is more, doing a better job that municipal fire departments)?

if you answered 'no', you'd be wrong: http://blog.heritage.org/2009/08/26/how-private-fire-departments-success-undermines-obamacare/

in a world that can produce everything from home security which alerts a private company if any windows or doors are forced open to on-star, which alerts a private company if you are in an accident...do you really think it is not feasible for people to develop business which can quickly determine whether or not a person has access to a service?

private businesses like hotels, restaurants, arcades, malls could pay for these services to provide that extra bit of security to their clients (which would be factored into the price of their goods) and obviously individuals could cover themselves and their homes for this service quite easily. I really don't see how any thing the government does could not be handled by private business.

quote:

LOL.. and since you are in Canada, sort of makes this discussion with you moot. I find those who are incredibly young tend to have your point of view. Its that belief of invincibility that really makes me laugh.


I don't understand how me being in Canada (as a landed immigrant, I'm a US citizen) makes this moot?

as far as my age is concerned, if you want to superimpose your misconceptions onto me in order to dodge the substance of my posts, go right ahead...but it won't help your case.

my wife who is my senior in age has an identical view to mine, is she simply a child at heart?




tazzygirl -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 11:00:32 AM)

The cost of putting out a fire is what? Im asking you since you are insiting you have the information.

Part of that cost of service is the prevention of other homes from catching on fire. Who will pay for that service as well?

Most people in this economy are having trouble paying their mortgage, let alone any insurance. Now you wish to land them with a service in case they may need a fire call.

Who will pay the salaries of the men and women who fight those fires?

Will the cost per month, and you suggested, be proportionate to the size of the structure?

If a section of town is full with corporations who do not wish to pay for such a service, then what?

Your theory is full of holes.




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