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RE: Katyn Forest - 4/10/2010 5:50:51 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

NG, what are you a history teacher ? I am NOT being sarcastic.



Naahhh....I'm in the busines world.....though did study history at university.....mainly British and German history 1870-1945 with a few other areas thrown in here and there such as British Social History/Industrial Revolution. Far too selfish to find pleasure in teaching a load of young lads and lasses who have nothing to do with me. I have a mate who's a teacher....and not so long ago he felt the need to have a chat with one of the young lads at the school as he wasn't putting the effort in......result being that the lad's dad called the school and told my mate that he'd find him and give him a going over down a back alley if he talks to his lad like that again....who needs that from their working life?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Half the people don't even know about the Rothchilds, nor their influence on world events.



Of course - T - the financial markets hold a certain amount of power - particularly in England where they are so important to our economy. But - the point I'm making is that when push comes to shove they aren't in the ascendancy of power. As I said - the banks couldn't stop the war - but the war could and did stop the banks - with disastrous consequences for bonds and the like and the wider economy.

I would say the media are as powerful as anyone - because they dictate the thoughts of the majority of the people who in turn place pressure on politicians. In Britain there was a concerted effort by the media - well before WW1 - to paint Germany as hell bent on destroying Britain. Some newspapers printed routes of a possible German invasion around 1909 and made sure the routes concentrated where the majority of their readers lived - just pressing a few buttons - just simple things like that aren't particularly subtle. As said the Germans were seen as like minded by some - particularly those out of the more liberal Cambridge University - were horrified that we would fight a war against Germany who were seen as a natural ally. But the more conservative universities e.g. Oxford and the conservative newspapers e.g. the Daily Mail had been banging the drum for a war againt Germany from 1900 - and the conservative newspapers spent a disproportionate amount of time convincing their readers that it was a good idea. So by the time the war came - and we had the choice to keep out or go in - it was British policy to leave ourselves free to decide and there was no treaty that bound us to another country (unlike say France and Russia) - large swathes of the public were convinced the war was a good idea - and the way was paved for it. The power of suggestion eh.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Me "Waht do they teach in schools ?"
Jerek "The Germans"



Could be wrong here but my understanding is that it was thought for a long time - by academics - that it was the Germans and it's not so long ago that the massacre site was examined and the guilty party was found to be the Russians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

The victors write the history. And then in a country like the US we only get a little slice of that, meted out by our controllers. How can anyone expect anything good and meaningful to happen under these circumstances ?



Happens in every country I'd imagine T because the goal of the government isn't necessarily aligned with your goals. Their objective is to maintain stability - your goal is perhaps your freedom - problem being that they aren't necessarily aligned. I think it's natural that the government will - when they feel it's in the interests of the wider nation - at times lie to you. That to me seems an absolute cast-iron fact that is irretrievably bound up with the rule of law.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

My own family told me that Hitler did Poland a big favor getting rid of a bunch of Jews.



It's well documented that anti-semitism was rife and violent in Eastern Europe - pogroms etc - and when war broke out (such as the Russo-Sino war 1905) - soldiers used it as an excuse to meter anti-semitic beatings. I went to the Jewish museum in Prague (ran by non-Jews by the way) when I was last there (there are a few of them - can't remember which one) and after WW2 the Czechs did not want any Jews to return - they themselves disclose this in their museum. It is an issue of which they are ashamed by the way but it points to the virulent anti-semitism that ran riot in these countries. And it would be unfair to say it was confined to Central and Eastern Europe....because the French Vichy regime during WW2....meted out punishment to Jews which shocked even the occupying Nazis.

In terms of warranted T - I'd say it's borne out of simple bullying. And the perpertrators will use any old excuse......"they have all the money"....."they're dirty"....."they take our jobs" etc....really animalistic stuff that often contradicts....but when push comes to shove...it's simply bullying i.e. venting fury on minorities (read smaller kids) because the bullies know they can get away with it and there isn't likely to be much of a response.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

There is no changing history, therefore no way to change the present. Does it follow then that there is no way to change the future ?



No. The future does to some extent follow the past because our make-up is driven in some capacity by custom and habit. But - reason is a part of our armour too - which is why everything evolves - language/institutions/poetry/ideas - anything you like really. The evidence is there that humans of all ages tend to think we have the answers - such as the US historian Fukyuma (not sure on spelling) who claims that this is the end of history in terms of ideas - but the experience of human nature suggests he's well off the mark.....and the political landscape will change in the not too distant future.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/10/2010 5:56:21 AM >

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RE: Katyn Forest - 4/10/2010 2:49:46 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


No. The future does to some extent follow the past because our make-up is driven in some capacity by custom and habit. But - reason is a part of our armour too - which is why everything evolves - language/institutions/poetry/ideas - anything you like really. The evidence is there that humans of all ages tend to think we have the answers - such as the US historian Fukyuma (not sure on spelling) who claims that this is the end of history in terms of ideas - but the experience of human nature suggests he's well off the mark.....and the political landscape will change in the not too distant future.


Uh, might wish to take another look at Fukuyama, NG. You might find he was referring to the evolution of forms of government in the dialectic sense and asserting (not without controversy) that liberal democracy would be the ultimate and best form adopted by most States.

_____________________________

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Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Katyn Forest - 4/10/2010 2:55:37 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Hate to change the subject on you guys...but it is more than a little creepy this plane crash that wiped out most of the Polish Gov. on the heels of this ceremony.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Katyn Forest - 4/10/2010 3:05:11 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline 		Strange coincidence. Good thing there are not too many conspiracy theorists on these boards.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Katyn Forest - 4/10/2010 3:06:53 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Yeah.....good thing

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Katyn Forest - 4/10/2010 3:08:56 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		I dont think the conspiracy theorists on these boards care about anything beyond the UK/US connection and the fact the US is an illegal government (according to them.)

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You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Katyn Forest - 4/10/2010 3:17:54 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Well they are missing a situation that just screams for their unique brand of talents.Hell given the participation of Putin in the ceremony and his obvious links to the old,but not nearly lamented,KGB.....this one might actually have some meat on it's bones.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Katyn Forest - 4/11/2010 1:10:23 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


No. The future does to some extent follow the past because our make-up is driven in some capacity by custom and habit. But - reason is a part of our armour too - which is why everything evolves - language/institutions/poetry/ideas - anything you like really. The evidence is there that humans of all ages tend to think we have the answers - such as the US historian Fukyuma (not sure on spelling) who claims that this is the end of history in terms of ideas - but the experience of human nature suggests he's well off the mark.....and the political landscape will change in the not too distant future.


Uh, might wish to take another look at Fukuyama, NG. You might find he was referring to the evolution of forms of government in the dialectic sense and asserting (not without controversy) that liberal democracy would be the ultimate and best form adopted by most States.


My understanding is that Fukuyama claimed Western Liberal Democracy is the final chapter. And he based this on the stability that this brings when compared with say left-wing revolutions.

Where I feel he is lacking is in this: there are obvious problems with Western Liberal Democracy and where there's a problem human beings look for a solution.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Katyn Forest - 4/11/2010 6:22:50 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


No. The future does to some extent follow the past because our make-up is driven in some capacity by custom and habit. But - reason is a part of our armour too - which is why everything evolves - language/institutions/poetry/ideas - anything you like really. The evidence is there that humans of all ages tend to think we have the answers - such as the US historian Fukyuma (not sure on spelling) who claims that this is the end of history in terms of ideas - but the experience of human nature suggests he's well off the mark.....and the political landscape will change in the not too distant future.


Uh, might wish to take another look at Fukuyama, NG. You might find he was referring to the evolution of forms of government in the dialectic sense and asserting (not without controversy) that liberal democracy would be the ultimate and best form adopted by most States.


My understanding is that Fukuyama claimed Western Liberal Democracy is the final chapter. And he based this on the stability that this brings when compared with say left-wing revolutions.

Where I feel he is lacking is in this: there are obvious problems with Western Liberal Democracy and where there's a problem human beings look for a solution.


Agreed. As I said.... not without controversy. And written following the fall of the Berlin Wall. (I would have to check to be sure but I believe that event was the catalyst to his original article) Don't recall who but someone argued that Oligarchy vs Democracy is the current dialectic because Oligarchy provides greater stability and comfort. Democracy is sooo messy and irritating. Accordingly, the world is now divided between the Oligarchs or pretend democracies and the Democracies. Again forget who (maybe our beloved and misunderstood BushCheney) wanted to form a League of Democracies to battle EVIL and protect the Anglo/Saxon/American way of life. (tongue firmly planted in cheek) Oh wait, didn't Woodrow Wilson engage us (USA) in a stupid war to end all wars and keep America safe for Democracy. Sorry, rambling.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 4/11/2010 6:24:03 AM >

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vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Katyn Forest - 4/11/2010 6:14:01 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

When the nazis reported Katyn we chose to pay it no heed, presumably for fear of upsetting Uncle Joe, whom we needed at the time as a wall upon which the German, Hungarian, Romanian and Italian forces should crash and be destroyed - as they eventually were, thanks in no small part to US supplies shipped through the Arctic to the Russians by British Merchant Navy vessels.

You did know that total US lend lease to Russia for the whole war amounted to  about 10% of Russias total war production.
That the majority of that 10% came through Iran and that the majority of that came in 1944-45.
Could you give us an approximate count on the tonnage that Churchill did actually get delivered to Russia?
On a seperate but related note:
You faithless slut....how could you take up with him after all we have been through together



Once the nazi genocide came to light and the Iron Curtain (first mentioned by one Josef Goebbels, not Churchill) fell, the whole thing dropped down the agenda by comparison.



E



(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Katyn Forest - 4/11/2010 6:25:44 PM   
OrpheusAgonistes


Posts: 253
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Did anyone else notice Putin's participation in a ceremony held at the site of the Katyn Forest massacre.20,000 Polish officers were assasinted by seciruty forces of the Soviet Union....Of course the Soviet Union for years denied any participation in this event....seems they assumed they could just roll it into Nazi atocities and no one would notice.Thankfully they were wrong and the truth has long been known,though officially denied by the Soviets till yesterdays event.


Putin scares me more than most most people because he has the ability to put on a mask of sanity when the pressure is on.  He was absolutely aware of the significance of the event he attended, and he was also absolutely aware that he would catch some criticism but would be able to skate by with an "acknowledgment."  He's brilliant.  He's ruthless.  He's strangely charming.

I have several friends who went to Russia after college.  Sooner or later, they all ended up in banking and they're all making money hand over fist.  One has married into an old Moscow family so he's probably in the catbird seat.  The others are painfully aware that no matter how much money they make or how well connected they are in business, they're still only foreigners.  One of them told me "If the shit ever hits the fan, I figure I'll be one of the last up against the wall.  But I'll be up against the wall."  They all keep their passports pretty handy these days and their papers in order.

So I do have some measure of bias when it comes to Putin.  I see him as a seductive monster--half Lex Luthor, half Nabokov narrator.  Given that bias, it isn't surprising that I see this particular gesture of Putin's as a pretty monumental, smirking, "Fuck you" to (first and foremost) the former Soviet satellites, and Europe, and the United States.  I'd also expect a little bit of grave dancing with Greece's probable total collapse in the very near future.


_____________________________

What I cannot create, I do not understand.--Feynman

Every sentence I have written here is the product of some disease.-- Wittgenstein

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RE: Katyn Forest - 4/11/2010 6:30:35 PM   
OrpheusAgonistes


Posts: 253
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:


My understanding is that Fukuyama claimed Western Liberal Democracy is the final chapter. And he based this on the stability that this brings when compared with say left-wing revolutions.

Where I feel he is lacking is in this: there are obvious problems with Western Liberal Democracy and where there's a problem human beings look for a solution.


I'm more enamored of Spengler than Fukuyama, but you seem like a smart guy and, if you ever have the time, I do recommend The End of History and the Last Man.  I wouldn't give more than .40 on the dollar for his arguments, but he's quite a bit more interesting than most modern political philosophers (and God knows he got more right than his plagiarist, Huntington).  I think Derrida went a long way toward demolishing Fukuyama, and Fukuyama never really got off a decent response (added fact:  He went a bit batty in his old age).


_____________________________

What I cannot create, I do not understand.--Feynman

Every sentence I have written here is the product of some disease.-- Wittgenstein

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Katyn Forest - 4/11/2010 6:42:03 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		Putin scares me more than most most people because he has the ability to put on a mask of sanity when the pressure is on.  He was absolutely aware of the significance of the event he attended, and he was also absolutely aware that he would catch some criticism but would be able to skate by with an "acknowledgment."  He's brilliant.  He's ruthless.  He's strangely charming.

I have proof of nothing. 
I have a smattering of ignorance of the history of Russia and Poland.
With that history in mind I find it entirely possible that this was murder most ritual.
I believe it was a message.

(in reply to OrpheusAgonistes)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Katyn Forest - 4/11/2010 6:56:24 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Yep...you're a charmer alright.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Katyn Forest - 4/11/2010 7:07:02 PM   
OrpheusAgonistes


Posts: 253
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Hate to change the subject on you guys...but it is more than a little creepy this plane crash that wiped out most of the Polish Gov. on the heels of this ceremony.


I actually frequent a number of conspiracy oriented websites.  I'm attracted to elegant manifestations of the paranoid worldview.  It's weirdly beautiful to watch a consensus evolve about history and current events that skews so far from the received version.  Plus, I just miss X Files.

Anyway, the timing of the plane crash and Putin's history with the KGB has decidedly not been lost on a million amateur hour Fox Mulders.  The fact that it comes so close to the collapse of the Greek economy is icing on the cake.  There are also lines being drawn to:  the recent scandal in the Catholic Church and its link to Poland, surviving Nazi colonies in South America (a perennial favorite), the CIA, and Obama (will that monster stop at nothing to hide his real birth certificate?).  There are also the standard comments by devotees of David Icke that the whole mess was engineered by Reptilian Illuminati Bloodlines that also secretly founded The House of Windsor and Skull and Bones.

My playful suggestion that the film Lech and Jaroslaw Kaczynski made as children (The Two Who Stole the Moon) had secretly been an Illuminati/MK Ultra/Monarch Project mind-control aid (like The Wizard of Oz) and that Kaczynski needed to be silenced because he was about to blow the lid off the whole damn mess became, unfortunately but predictably, immediately popular.


_____________________________

What I cannot create, I do not understand.--Feynman

Every sentence I have written here is the product of some disease.-- Wittgenstein

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RE: Katyn Forest - 4/12/2010 3:24:48 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Putin scares me "

The dissidents in this country call him one of the few actually competent world leaders.

T

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Katyn Forest - 4/12/2010 5:50:18 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"Putin scares me "

The dissidents in this country call him one of the few actually competent world leaders.

T


Easier isn't it when the leader essentially has control of the Legislature. As I said above, Democracy is soooo messy.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

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Profile   Post #: 57
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