RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 9:18:24 PM)

hey Wyld? How do we know she didnt do all those things? Or maybe half of them? We are going by what the account Russia gave us alone.



WyldHrt -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 9:39:02 PM)

Tazzy- While we don't know for sure, "grandma" has spoken on the issue in defence of her daughter, who has gone into hiding over the shitstorm caused by her behaviour. Don't you think granny would have mentioned trying to get help for the boy and being rebuffed if it had happened? It makes no sense.
That aside, I have a very hard time believing that CPS would not remove a child from the home if the "mother" told them that he was homicidal and that she would no longer care for him.





tazzygirl -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 9:43:57 PM)

I dont know for sure what happened. All im suggesting is to allow the story to develop before making rash comments.

For example, i ran across this story about the same incident...

quote:

Nancy Hansen said a social worker checked on the boy in January and reported to Russian authorities that there were no problems. But after that, the grandmother said incidents of hitting, kicking and spitting began to escalate, along with threats.

She said she and her daughter went to Russia together to adopt the boy, and she believes information about his behavioral problems was withheld from her daughter.

"The Russian orphanage officials completely lied to her because they wanted to get rid of him," Nancy Hansen said.

She said the boy was very skinny when they picked him up, and he told them he had been beaten with a broom handle at the orphanage.

Joseph LaBarbera, a clinical psychologist at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, said adoptive parents are many times not aware of the psychological state of children put up for adoption.

"Parents enter into it (foreign adoption) with positive motivations but, in a sense, they are a little bit blindsided by their desire to adopt," said LaBarbera, who specializes in the psychological evaluation of children and has worked with a number of children adopted from Russia and other foreign countries. "They're not prepared to appreciate, psychologically, the kinds of conditions these kids have been exposed to and the effect it has had on them."


So, now we have the child accusing the adoptive mother of abuse and the orphanage. Could be correct on both... could both be exagerations. Its too soon to tell exactly what happened.

But, i do agree with one thing... the grandmother is an idiot.



slvemike4u -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 9:49:15 PM)

I'm not sure how much  more of the story needs to develop ...the "return the kid" arrangements in and of themselves is enough to turn my stomach.



kittinSol -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 9:49:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I dont know for sure what happened. All im suggesting is to allow the story to develop before making rash comments.


Children are not commodities.



tazzygirl -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 9:55:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I'm not sure how much  more of the story needs to develop ...the "return the kid" arrangements in and of themselves is enough to turn my stomach.


Parents in the US have had adoptions recinded based upon psychological issues in the child. Its a crap shoot, granted. Not everyone is capable of handling it. Russia adopted out 1600 children to the US last year. And, according to UNICEF there are 740,000 more without a custodial parent there. Sounds like Russia is farming them out.



Loki45 -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 10:09:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
Big assumption there, Loki. Apparently, the kid wasn't homicidal back in January when "mom" had a home visit by a social worker, as no problems were reported then.


Meanwhile we've seen news reports of a 3rd grade class who collectively planned and schemed to kidnap and/or murder their teacher. What age is it again that they are believed when they think these thoughts?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
As for what she should have done, are you fucking kidding me? How about having the boy evaluated medically and psychologically?


And in between evals, when the boy is sent home, we see a news report about a kid who killed his whole family. Great plan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
FFS, I can't believe that you think it's ok to put a 7 year old kid on a plane alone, to be picked up by a complete stranger in another country.


Speaking of assumptions....

Where did I say it was ok? Where did those words leave my keyboard to your screen under my name? They didn't. You're not going all....irrational and emotional on me now...are you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
Oh, and while we're at it... if the kid was that violent, and indeed homicidal, why on earth was he put on a plane full of people, with no one aware of that little fact? I suppose that's ok with you as well?


Well, as the plane didn't explode mid-air and the kid made it to where he was going, I'll let the evidence speak for itself.





slvemike4u -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 10:31:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I'm not sure how much  more of the story needs to develop ...the "return the kid" arrangements in and of themselves is enough to turn my stomach.


Parents in the US have had adoptions recinded based upon psychological issues in the child. Its a crap shoot, granted. Not everyone is capable of handling it. Russia adopted out 1600 children to the US last year. And, according to UNICEF there are 740,000 more without a custodial parent there. Sounds like Russia is farming them out.
All of that is granted tazzy...the airplane trip by himself might also be forgiven....the arranging for the stranger thing is just too much for me.
The fact that the orphanage wasn't aware of the child's impending return...too much for me
So when I hear these things...everything else coming from the mother and the grandmothers mouth is sought of suspect....know what I mean?



slvemike4u -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 10:35:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
Big assumption there, Loki. Apparently, the kid wasn't homicidal back in January when "mom" had a home visit by a social worker, as no problems were reported then.


Meanwhile we've seen news reports of a 3rd grade class who collectively planned and schemed to kidnap and/or murder their teacher. What age is it again that they are believed when they think these thoughts?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
As for what she should have done, are you fucking kidding me? How about having the boy evaluated medically and psychologically?


And in between evals, when the boy is sent home, we see a news report about a kid who killed his whole family. Great plan.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
FFS, I can't believe that you think it's ok to put a 7 year old kid on a plane alone, to be picked up by a complete stranger in another country.


Speaking of assumptions....

Where did I say it was ok? Where did those words leave my keyboard to your screen under my name? They didn't. You're not going all....irrational and emotional on me now...are you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
Oh, and while we're at it... if the kid was that violent, and indeed homicidal, why on earth was he put on a plane full of people, with no one aware of that little fact? I suppose that's ok with you as well?


Well, as the plane didn't explode mid-air and the kid made it to where he was going, I'll let the evidence speak for itself.



Can we let the "evidence" that mon is in actuality still alive also speak for itself ?
Or that grandmama survived the trip to dump the child on the plane....might that speak for itself ?
How and who evaluated this child as being "homicidal"...what evidence is speaking there?



WyldHrt -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 10:36:17 PM)

quote:

Meanwhile we've seen news reports of a 3rd grade class who collectively planned and schemed to kidnap and/or murder their teacher. What age is it again that they are believed when they think these thoughts?

Nice strawman, but it had nothing to do with the quote above it, now did it?
quote:

And in between evals, when the boy is sent home, we see a news report about a kid who killed his whole family. Great plan.

Bit of a reach, there. The kid supposedly began showing violent behaviour right after the social worker's visit in January, yet he stayed in the home for 3 more months. That said, he would likely have been held for further evaluation had he been examined and deemed violent by a professional.
quote:

Speaking of assumptions....
Where did I say it was ok? Where did those words leave my keyboard to your screen under my name? They didn't. You're not going all....irrational and emotional on me now...are you?

Not likely, luv. As to those words leaving your keyboard, asking "What should she have done? Let him kill her family?" in response to my condemnation of her actions sort of indicates that you are ok with what she did, dunnit?
quote:

Well, as the plane didn't explode mid-air and the kid made it to where he was going, I'll let the evidence speak for itself.

Hey then, it's all good. [8|] *looks up to see the point flying right over your head*



Loki45 -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 11:15:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Can we let the "evidence" that mon is in actuality still alive also speak for itself ?
Or that grandmama survived the trip to dump the child on the plane....might that speak for itself ?


Of course we can. They got rid of the kid...thus they are still alive. Thanks for proving my point. They are alive, the plane made it back to Russia safely....everyone's happy -- well except the ones who still have to deal with the kid. But then they pawned him off on someone else to start with so them getting him back is just karma.



Loki45 -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 11:18:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
Nice strawman, but it had nothing to do with the quote above it, now did it?


Actually it did. Let me know when it sinks in. I wasn't there.....but neither were you. Only the people involved were there. And since more and more gets are killing today...I'd tend to side with the adult.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
Bit of a reach, there. The kid supposedly began showing violent behaviour right after the social worker's visit in January, yet he stayed in the home for 3 more months. That said, he would likely have been held for further evaluation had he been examined and deemed violent by a professional.


And of course no one on earth knows how to 'play normal' when they know a 'professional' was evaluating them....right?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
Not likely, luv. As to those words leaving your keyboard, asking "What should she have done? Let him kill her family?" in response to my condemnation of her actions sort of indicates that you are ok with what she did, dunnit?


Nope. What it does indicate is that you weren't there and don't know what she felt. She felt this was her only recourse. We weren't there. How can we say different?

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
Hey then, it's all good. *looks up to see the point flying right over your head*


Then I'm in good company...we can watch it together. Just don't go grabbin' my ass when I look.



slvemike4u -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 11:22:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Can we let the "evidence" that mon is in actuality still alive also speak for itself ?
Or that grandmama survived the trip to dump the child on the plane....might that speak for itself ?


Of course we can. They got rid of the kid...thus they are still alive. Thanks for proving my point. They are alive, the plane made it back to Russia safely....everyone's happy -- well except the ones who still have to deal with the kid. But then they pawned him off on someone else to start with so them getting him back is just karma.

You might want to do a little work on that comprehension thing.The point is that they are still alive despite their exposure to this homicidal 6 year old !!!!!
And by the way...what happened to the last line in my post....couldn't you figure out a handy dandy way to twist that one too?
Or was that question a little inconvienent to your oh so human take on things?



WyldHrt -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 11:33:15 PM)

quote:

Then I'm in good company...we can watch it together. Just don't go grabbin' my ass when I look.

LOL! You do crack me up. That said, I have to do some work stuff before the Monday from Hell starts, so I will have to shred the rest of your 'arguments' later.
Nighters



slvemike4u -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 11:41:54 PM)

Don't even bother responding to mine Loki....I'm going to bed with Wyld......well not with her of course ,I just meant I'm off to bed at the same time as She....sheesh you people have filthy minds.[:D]



Termyn8or -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/11/2010 11:58:43 PM)

FR

Bickering aside, a piece of me wants to say "Just send the kid here". I have the means I think to deal with something like this. I have at the moment 24/7 security, and if the kid knows English I should be able to do something. Then we have a guy who can practically see through walls, and a covert undefeated martial arts expert. Then there is the Woman who can handle about ten kids at once, this should be no sweat. Actually the problem right now is space. I would have to put an addition on the house to accomodate anyone else.

But the main thing is that we all know that children are little people, growing up. We know they are not simply chattel or expelled fetus'. There is a difference. And that is the main difference.

Just think of this kid's background. Institutionalized. Well I got one thing to say, and it surprise many but I think it true. If you put an innocent person in prison you are more likely to create a criminal than putting a guilty person in prison is likely to create a law abiding citizen. (I really tried to word that better but .....)

I really don't know if I'm kidding but I would like to put my power to use, to help someone. Full growed Men, when I say no they know not to even start. If I say "no, because bla bla bla" that means I will listen. But if you ever heard me in person say the word no when I mean it, you would know where I'm coming from.

When you get a kid who is all set up to become a gangster, they should not be raised by a flower girl. There are only a few things that should invoke a corporal response, running in the street, playing with lighter, matches, the stove, trying to kill someone. Things like that. They will grow in time and respect those ass whuppins' and wil also respect the times they screwed up and don't get one. Then it sinks in - this person really does care. From there it comes, the love and loyalty.

Is this manipulation ? Sure as hell it is, but if you take on this responsibility that is your job. One hundred percent.

In the final analysis, if you can't find a homicidally maniacal orphan in the US perhaps you don't need one. Not that many people can handle it and overseas adoptions are run by the same ilk who ran the 900 and 976 phone numbers. They used to be phone party, dating and/or sex lines. These things always existed but you used to need a credit card. When they started billing you on the phone bill it was clearly a scam to make more money. Just letting someone in your house for a time could cost you like $300. BTW if it happened to you and they fuck with you over a 900 bill, I have a way to shut them down. It is PROVEN and it will work every time, but I will not say here out in public.

At any rate this whole issue is caused by people not thinking ahead. There is alot of that going on these days. They leap before they look. Take it from me, that ditch is smelly, cold and not so comfy.

T



Loki45 -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/12/2010 12:47:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
You might want to do a little work on that comprehension thing.The point is that they are still alive despite their exposure to this homicidal 6 year old !!!!!


And your point is?

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
And by the way...what happened to the last line in my post....couldn't you figure out a handy dandy way to twist that one too?
Or was that question a little inconvienent to your oh so human take on things?


If you mean this one:

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
How and who evaluated this child as being "homicidal"...what evidence is speaking there?


I didn't need to twist it. That's not for you or I to determine. The mom felt threatened. Who's to say she didn't?

When you defend yourself under self-defense laws in most states, the requirement is that YOU must have felt your life was in danger. It's not what a panel of others who weren't there felt. It's what YOU felt at the time YOU pulled the trigger.

This person felt threatened by the kid. You weren't there and neither was I. We have scores of people committing murder daily who "seemed normal" up until they went on their killing spree so evaluation means nothing. The fact is, the woman felt threatened. Period.

As for your comment about my "oh-so-human take on things," I'm being human to the one who felt threatened. Not the one who was thought to be psychotic.



Loki45 -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/12/2010 12:53:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
LOL! You do crack me up. That said, I have to do some work stuff before the Monday from Hell starts, so I will have to shred the rest of your 'arguments' later.


Best of luck to you. Because unless your argument-shredding begins with "I was there, I know the kid," you fail before you start.

You weren't there. I wasn't there. The woman felt threatened enough to send him home. Period.

In regards to parenting, the law says;
1) You can't beat your kids.
2) You can't lock them in their room.
3) You can't restrain them in anyway
4) If they get into trouble (ie not going to school, committing crimes, etc) you are the one who pays for it (fines, jail time, etc.)

No matter what this parent "could" have tried, she felt the kid was psychotic. Which means, no matter what she did, she's got to sleep some time and she knows it. If he's already drawing pics of the house burning with her in it.....I highly doubt she wanted to sleep with him in the house. Would you? I wouldn't.

So she did what *she* felt she had to do. You're not her. I'm not her. And neither of us was there. There's no getting around that fact.



Termyn8or -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/12/2010 1:16:48 AM)

FR

After further reading I have a comment. Perhaps there should be a screening process for adoptive Parents other than a pile of money. Wait, I thought we had that.

Now in more direct reponse, #1 - I don't care if it's illegal you never beat a kid. Actually when they hit the teen years you can but it is more like sparring. Not in anger at all. And if you are a good Parent you hope one day they win against you. You also educate them and hope that they turn out smarter than you. It's called evolution, and has been in practice for many years. Some don't bother, but some do.

#2 you can't lock them in, but you can lock them out. A cage or jail cell type of environment is EXACTLY what you are trying to avoid here.

#3 you CAN restrain them. In fact you are rquired to restrain them when they are in a moving vehicle. Laws pertaining to that mean nothing. That's almost saying that you can't put a rope on them if you go climbing hills. No weight at all in any law like that. In fact in law you can restrain anyone nonconsentually if they are destructive. It happens all the time. Don't let them befuddle you on this.

#4 understood. That's what you're in for. Still want it ? I don't mean that sarcastically, some people are of such a giving nature that they will do such things. If you are a tue Parent you deal with anything, and I mean ANYTHING that comes along. It's a long ride.

Sometimes I regret not taking that ride.

T



Loki45 -> RE: Not Wanted !?! WTF (4/12/2010 1:21:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
#2 you can't lock them in, but you can lock them out. A cage or jail cell type of environment is EXACTLY what you are trying to avoid here.


Incorrect. If you lock them out, you can go to jail. You don't know what will happen if a kid is left to fend for himself -- a kid you are supposed to be raising. No, if they're yours, the law says they better be in your house (by curfew in some areas).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
#3 you CAN restrain them. In fact you are rquired to restrain them when they are in a moving vehicle. Laws pertaining to that mean nothing. That's almost saying that you can't put a rope on them if you go climbing hills. No weight at all in any law like that. In fact in law you can restrain anyone nonconsentually if they are destructive. It happens all the time. Don't let them befuddle you on this.


I think you know full-well what I meant by restrain. I'm not talking seat belts. I'm talking restraints that ensure they don't burn your house down while you're sleeping. Jails and psych wards can get away with that, parents can't.



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