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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/16/2010 6:58:15 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Not true either--they just believe they've found where to look.

It's difficult to know where to look. When we are dreaming, we believe the world of the dream is real. When we wake up and get ready for work and hurry off, we believe that world is real. And sometimes, we then suddenly wake up in bed... late for work! Perhaps the only thing of which we can be absolutely certain is that we are experiencing beings.

Kirata the Philosopher

Reminds me of the end of "The Glass Bead Game," Joseph Knecht's Indian life---

That's maya.

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/16/2010 7:50:46 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's maya.

maya -noun Hinduism.
1.the power, as of a god, to produce illusions.
2.the production of an illusion.
3.(in Vedantic philosophy) the illusion of the reality of sensory experience and of the experienced qualities and attributes of oneself.

Yes, and there seems to me a clue in that. For if our sensory experience is not reality, then only two options remain which appear to have the potential to re-connect us with the truth of our universe. One is to uncover its nature through science. The other is to uncover the nature of consciousness itself. And with the painfully conspicuous exception of "scriptural" religion, that is, to my thinking, the path of a re-ligio.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/16/2010 8:14:01 PM >

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/16/2010 8:20:05 PM

GoddessNatasha

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error ... wrong thread

< Message edited by GoddessNatasha -- 4/16/2010 8:22:24 PM >

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/16/2010 9:06:20 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikeyOfGeorgia
again...where's the proof of this...all anyone has is the written words of an ancient book that, so far, has not provided on shred of tangible proof. They are simply that...just words.

What constitutes proof?

I seriously doubt that anyone's personal spiritual perspective comes only from words written in books. Each person has their own experiences and their own perspectives.

Even evolution could be called words written in books. There is no tangible proof that links each evolutionary change in each species. It seems logical and I accept it based on that logic. But Darwin's Theory remains theory. There certainly isn't any direct evidence against it. But tangible proof? The Big Bang? Where's the tangible proof? Every Discovery Channel documentary on the study of the universe is filled with words like "there is evidence to suggest" and "it is believed that" and "scientists theorize" but there is no tangible proof of a lot of things.

You may want to look up the words faith and spiritual. Neither words deal with tangible objects.

In the process of science Theory is often confused with hypothesis. A hypothesis is a testable statement that is subject to "proof" with varying degrees of probability. A Theory is a synthesis or model which explains or gives the best fit explanation to a set of observations. Darwin's theory is not a hypothesis. In science the Theory is subject to change if the observed "facts" no longer support the Model. The Theory is not proved or disproved; it is altered or in extreme cases discarded. The four body fluids - blood, phlegm, yellow bile, black bile - are no longer accepted as the model or Theory of human health, for example. In the same fashion, if we have new observations that do not support Darwin's model it will be altered, or in the most extreme case, discarded. Some try to suggest that Intelligent Design is a model worthy of consideration within the framework of Science, but it comes with little or no observations to support the model.

The newly developing knowledge of genomes lends support to linkage between species and where they diverged. Spectroscopic observations of shift in the infrared spectra of distant galaxies led to the construction of the Big Bang model of the origins of our Universe. When we have new observations that do not fit that model, the Theory will be altered to fit the new information. In that way science at its best form is an ongoing process of developing knowledge. It is not locked into words like theologies of the Book. Science is a Dynamic process of human learning and never claims to have ultimate truth. Anyone who says so does not understand Science.

I agree with you, eyes, there is no proof of ultimate reality. We are all building models. It is just that some models became fixed in ancient books. My spirituality comes from the dynamic process of Science as the human mind grapples with the wonder of this Universe, the existence of Life, and the certainty of death.

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/16/2010 9:48:34 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

It is just that some models became fixed in ancient books. My spirituality comes from the dynamic process of Science...

And some models become fixed in scientific paradigms...

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die. - Max Planck

A bit sarcastic perhaps, but as Schopenhauer observed:

Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed. Third, it is regarded as self-evident.

Do you think it might be possible that some truths haven't changed since they were written down in "ancient books"? Because one thing at least is clear. Spiritual beliefs that change with the "dynamic process of science" are spiritual beliefs that change because they are wrong. And if the history of science is anything to go by, that means they're probably wrong now too.

Though, of course, the way you're using the term "spirituality" here leaves me wondering what is spiritual about it.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/16/2010 10:34:53 PM >

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/17/2010 5:37:35 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

It is just that some models became fixed in ancient books. My spirituality comes from the dynamic process of Science...

And some models become fixed in scientific paradigms...

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die. - Max Planck

A bit sarcastic perhaps, but as Schopenhauer observed:

Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is opposed. Third, it is regarded as self-evident.

Do you think it might be possible that some truths haven't changed since they were written down in "ancient books"? Because one thing at least is clear. Spiritual beliefs that change with the "dynamic process of science" are spiritual beliefs that change because they are wrong. And if the history of science is anything to go by, that means they're probably wrong now too.

Though, of course, the way you're using the term "spirituality" here leaves me wondering what is spiritual about it.

K.

Yes, some models become fixed in scientific paradigms but paradigms change and the models are reformed or discarded. No contradiction there. We are talking of models within models after all, so all is in transition. For that reason "truths" from ancient books fail. But also for the reason that as I said as well there is no proof of ultimate reality. I acknowledge of course that some think there is and I have no quarrel with them that do. To each his own, I think.

Spiritual beliefs are understandings from which we draw meaning and value. There is no shame in admitting they are wrong when we are confronted with unsolvable contradictions. Our minds are not fixed. Synapses and neural pathways are newly formed as we learn, communicate and act. Meaning and values need not be fixed (unless they are received wisdom from Authority and carry penalties for disbelief)

The spirituality is not in the beliefs but in the process of exploring and seeking the reality and perhaps accepting it is a futile journey that ends with the death of the brain/mind. Of course I see my own contradiction - that I have the "belief" I am an actor in this Universe who is set upon a journey along the road of why, what for, from whence, and to what end. So, life is lived as a contradiction. The spirituality comes in the living of it and seeking the connections with time, space, and others while accepting the possibility that all is delicate and ephemeral and may end in a pile of ashes. Ironically, it is from that unstable process that I can construct meaning and morality.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 4/17/2010 5:39:31 AM >

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/17/2010 5:50:33 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

all is in transition. For that reason "truths" from ancient books fail.

One of the "truths" (your quotes) to be found in ancient books is that all is in transition.

As for your use of the word "spirituality," I respect your right to invent your own language.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/17/2010 5:59:58 AM >

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/17/2010 6:36:29 AM

littlewonder

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I'm my own religion. I'm a mix of chrisitian faith and buddhist philosophy with a tinge of humanism.

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/17/2010 9:08:43 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's maya.

maya -noun Hinduism.
1.the power, as of a god, to produce illusions.
2.the production of an illusion.
3.(in Vedantic philosophy) the illusion of the reality of sensory experience and of the experienced qualities and attributes of oneself.

Yes, and there seems to me a clue in that. For if our sensory experience is not reality, then only two options remain which appear to have the potential to re-connect us with the truth of our universe. One is to uncover its nature through science. The other is to uncover the nature of consciousness itself. And with the painfully conspicuous exception of "scriptural" religion, that is, to my thinking, the path of a re-ligio.

K.

One day, Kirata, you and I should sit down for a long and thorough exploratory discussion.

I look forward to it.

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/17/2010 9:14:44 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

all is in transition. For that reason "truths" from ancient books fail.

One of the "truths" (your quotes) to be found in ancient books is that all is in transition.

As for your use of the word "spirituality," I respect your right to invent your own language.

K.

So you see, I did not have to read your ancient books.

My "spirituality" is mine and yours is yours. Tis the nature of the human mind to be creative.

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/17/2010 9:26:33 AM

Musicmystery

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My T'ai Chi teacher, T. T. Liang (a Ch'an Buddhist), used to say, "Rely too much on teachers, better not have teachers; rely too much on books, better not have books."

That said, some books are simply, I feel, must reads, for anyone of any belief or nonbelief.

At the top, I'd place the Upanishads.

But I have to agree with Kirata about the use of "spirituality." I don't believe in any god, and I don't feel life has an inherent purpose or meaning. It just is. But I have come to believe in the importance of living a daily spiritual life, a life grounded in study and practice in all one's affairs.

Once (the story goes), an accomplished monk traveled miles to met the one Zen master he felt could continue to guide him in his journey. He arrived early one morning, and after waiting for the Zen master to finish his morning meditation, was granted an audience.

The monk explained about his accomplishments and his quest to study with the Zen master. "Have you had your breakfast?" asked the master. The monk replied that he had. "Then go and wash the dishes."

When one recognizes this as spiritual practice, life takes a much more serene turn.

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/17/2010 10:22:25 AM

stella41b

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Theravada Buddhism combined with the philosophies of Rudolf Steiner.

I am from the spiritual world, I remain part of the spiritual world, and I will return to the spiritual world for it is where I exist eternally. I am currently part of the physical, material world, to which I keep returning to further develop my spirit.

I come here to be at one with the world and with others and through this I can be at one with myself.

I have the ability to accept others unconditionally, and to love others unconditionally.

I also have the ability to detach myself whenever and wherever necessary and the ability to live in a state of non-attachment.

I have the ability to create something out of nothing.

I have the ability to be wrong, and to make mistakes, and these are two abilities which are very important, for they remind me that perfection is a state of non-existence, and they enable me to learn, to develop, and to grow.

I hold myself responsible for everything I say, everything I do, everything I think. I know that all three have consequences on other people, on my environment and on me. I call this karma.

I am here only for a very short time in relation to the world, there can only be so many opportunities to share moments with others. When I am dead I am gone, gone forever from the people around me. The only thing I can leave behind are memories of me left in the hearts of others.

Therefore I only have a certain amount of time to share myself, my life, my kindness and my love with others.

I am nothing and nobody other than myself - this alone is all I have to share with others.

I live for the moment, here and now, because yesterday has gone and tomorrow is unknown.

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/17/2010 11:07:26 AM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

My T'ai Chi teacher, T. T. Liang (a Ch'an Buddhist), used to say, "Rely too much on teachers, better not have teachers; rely too much on books, better not have books."

That said, some books are simply, I feel, must reads, for anyone of any belief or nonbelief.

At the top, I'd place the Upanishads.

But I have to agree with Kirata about the use of "spirituality." I don't believe in any god, and I don't feel life has an inherent purpose or meaning. It just is. But I have come to believe in the importance of living a daily spiritual life, a life grounded in study and practice in all one's affairs.

What are books and teachers except media to relay ideas and describe events, often from the past living to the now and future living. They are not inerrant, although some would have us believe so. What is "spirituality?" I take Kirata to mean it is different for each of us. With that I can agree. My path is mine and yours is yours. Someone said the unexamined life is not worth living. Can't remember who. Did not keep the book.

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/17/2010 11:12:19 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

What are books and teachers except media to relay ideas and describe events, often from the past living to the now and future living. They are not inerrant, although some would have us believe so.

Kind of the point:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

My T'ai Chi teacher, T. T. Liang (a Ch'an Buddhist), used to say, "Rely too much on teachers, better not have teachers; rely too much on books, better not have books."

Blind rejection isn't inherently wiser.

quote:

My path is mine and yours is yours. Someone said the unexamined life is not worth living. Can't remember who.

Plato, in Apology.

Consider the irony of what you've written.

And no one's trying to have you follow any path at all. You're in your head on this one.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 4/17/2010 11:17:00 AM >

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/17/2010 2:51:43 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

What are books and teachers except media to relay ideas and describe events, often from the past living to the now and future living. They are not inerrant, although some would have us believe so.

Kind of the point:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

My T'ai Chi teacher, T. T. Liang (a Ch'an Buddhist), used to say, "Rely too much on teachers, better not have teachers; rely too much on books, better not have books."

Blind rejection isn't inherently wiser.

quote:

My path is mine and yours is yours. Someone said the unexamined life is not worth living. Can't remember who.

Plato, in Apology.

Consider the irony of what you've written.

And no one's trying to have you follow any path at all. You're in your head on this one.

I did not make my point clear enough then. I do not advocate blind rejection of the communications and ideas in the books. Not at all.

I am just not too keen on giving blind obedience to the Authority of books or teachers (believers or nonbelievers) I suspect we are on the same page (no pun) here.

Furthermore, I agree with your earlier comment that Life just is and is without purpose. But since we are peculiarly gifted with imagination, creativity, and the ability to grasp the significance of our own death.... we can use all of that to find meaning for ourselves. The alternative is a madness or at best a dullness of the will/spirit/joy. To that end I agree with your commitment to a "life grounded in study and practice to all one's affairs." Nicely stated.

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/17/2010 4:06:54 PM

Kirata

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I don't feel life has an inherent purpose or meaning. It just is.

And yet, that seems terribly significant.

Perhaps its purpose is simply to be. It certainly seems to strive against all odds to that end.

K.

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/17/2010 6:18:53 PM

Musicmystery

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I agree. Simply to be is no small matter.

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/17/2010 8:20:04 PM

vincentML

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Even at their most primative, Life forms are tenacious which raises the interesting question of multiple beginnings in multiple places.

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/18/2010 8:53:10 AM

Kirata

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I agree. Simply to be is no small matter.

Indeed...

I commented in a previous post that perhaps the only thing of which we can be absolutely certain is that we are experiencing beings, and then in a later post you mentioned the Upanishads. The Aitareya says, "consciousness is brahman" (prajnanam brahma). The Mandukya states, "the self is brahman" (ayam atma brahma). And the Brhadaranyaka sings, "I am brahman" (aham brahmasmi).

In other words, we do not simply 'manifest' or 'possess' consciousness -- we are consciousness.

This is where the metaphor of a drop merging with the ocean is so often misunderstood. We do not lose our identity, we find it. Siva as "The Destroyer" is similarly misconstrued, for what the metaphor intends is the destroyer of ignorance and falsehood. In my opinion, the infinite wisdom of Zen's method of teaching lies in the fact that it declines to give the mind something to seize on to dispute!

K.

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RE: What is your faith/spiritual/secular perspective? - 4/18/2010 9:47:00 AM

Musicmystery

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Well said. I'm going to have to go back and re-read a lot of things I read long ago.

My T'ai Chi teacher, a Ch'an Buddhist (a Taoist blend that eventually finds Japan to become Zen), always asked us "Show me your original face before you were born." And, of course, we all had very physical experiences of the power of no mind.

To acquire, one must first give something up, the Buddhist scriptures tell us. "Invest in loss," my T'ai Chi teacher repeated endlessly. And Gautama, like your water drop, surrenders ego to realize what will become his teaching.

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