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Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 8:38:04 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Forgive me in advance if this post seems a little fuzzy, but my constant quest for understanding people's motivations and behaviours has me analysing something yet again.

Though I've met many before, I've recently had an influx of strong, socially dominant men (some simply socially dominant who want to be submissive to a woman, some switches, some actually Dominants), wanting me to make them obey. On a purely primal level, it is hot. I love the idea of the resistance play, the struggle and it awakens the huntress in me. I have nicknamed them daredevil submissives, as they seem to be daring me to overpower them.

But I have a hard time picturing a long term dynamic where this struggle would be reoccurring.That would just simply get exhausting. In the past, the few experiences I've had with trying to take daredevil submissives to something more long term has resulted in a struggle and I've tended to stay away, thinking the hotness of the moment isn't worth the frustration that might ensue.

I've talked about this before in the Ask A Mistress forum but I'm going to try another tangent and address this to the s-types here.

- Are you or have you ever been a daredevil submissive?
- When you do so, are you only looking for the thrill of the dynamic?
- Have you ever found yourself starting off like this and then wanting to offer your submission up more easily down the road?
- Was it a question of just finding the right person to do this with to start giving up the power voluntarily?

- LA

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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 8:50:02 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

- Are you or have you ever been a daredevil submissive?

I suppose I'm a daredevil sub. I just enjoy the exchange and the banter of it. I step here, you step there, I dart there, you grab my hair...
quote:
- When you do so, are you only looking for the thrill of the dynamic?
  
I enjoy the thrill of it and we do repeat it often in our relationhip.
quote:
- Have you ever found yourself starting off like this and then wanting to offer your submission up more easily down the road?
- Was it a question of just finding the right person to do this with to start giving up the power voluntarily?

To certain extent, I seperate submission from this behavior. For example: A dominant I'm involved with may tell me him to get him shirt and I bring it without a second thought. Or may mention he needs to grab it so I offer to fetch it for him. But when he moves to push me on the bed, I may still dart away so that he chases me down.

Sometimes we'll do the dance for simple commands, just to relish the feeling of power over me as he twists my hair in his hand. For me and mine though, I think it's very clear what we are doing and it's mutually enjoyable. A bit of play, some flirting, horsing around when we both know it's just for fun.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 8:54:03 AM   
jbcurious


Posts: 717
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		If you don´t mind a f/s thoughts on this...

I´ve always been challenging in relationships... with the simple goal of wanting to be Dominated.  It´s not a part of my personality to be submissive, yet for a long term relationship to work, I know that I need to be submissive.

There is an initial thrill of being overcome... for me it´s mental more so than physical.

Once it´s established that the other party can Dominate then yes, I´m much easier about submitting.

Yes, it very well could be about meeting the right person,  I have known people that I knew I could not to cross a certain line with... it´s about inspiring a certain awe or respect.


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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 8:57:54 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		Well, I can't really answer your question since I'm a dominant who who doesn't particularly want to submit and Carol's a submissive who doesn't particularly want to dominate.

What I can say is that I share in great heaping spoonfulls your mistrust of what you've called "the daredevil submissive". Call me a simple man, but I prefer submissives who are actually, you know, submissive. Since I don't "scene" I'm only in it for the long-haul. And I can't quite see the point in beating a square peg into a round hole. Even if I succeeded (a highly dubious proposition), would that really be a responsible use of power?

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 9:01:27 AM   
pyroaquatic


Posts: 1535
Joined: 12/4/2006
From: Pyroaquatica
Status: offline
quote:

- Are you or have you ever been a daredevil submissive?
Yes I am.
- When you do so, are you only looking for the thrill of the dynamic?
There are other dimensions that I would like to visit. I get my thrills by entertaining myself
- Have you ever found yourself starting off like this and then wanting to offer your submission up more easily down the road?
I cannot say. I have very little dating experience.

- Was it a question of just finding the right person to do this with to start giving up the power voluntarily?
Yes


< Message edited by pyroaquatic -- 4/11/2010 9:03:15 AM >

_____________________________

You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 9:02:44 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Call me a simple man, but I prefer submissives who are actually, you know, submissive. Since I don't "scene" I'm only in it for the long-haul.

What? I can't have a scene in a long-haul relationship?

Damn, Val and I are going to miss our playtime...

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 9:07:28 AM   
jbcurious


Posts: 717
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		Jeff... I don´t think that the fact that some don´t submit easily... doesn´t make them any less submissive in the long run.

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'Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.'


I have an explosive personality...


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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 9:10:04 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		*laughs* no play for you!

Seriously, that's not what I said... or at least meant... which was, "Since I do not scene, then the only possible thing that remains to interest me is the long-haul relationship part". Of course you CAN scene in the context of a long-haul relationship and I'm sure that it's rewarding. But I don't. So if I were to experiencing power struggles, they would not be "play" and it would very much make me question whether I've chosen the right path for Carol and I. I cannot see the value of being in non-mock combat with my life partner.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 4/11/2010 9:11:15 AM >

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 9:41:24 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		AquaticSub, I'm so glad you responded as I always love reading your perspective.

And thank you all for chiming in to date.

I might have included in the original post that this wasn't just about play/sex, but rather in all aspects of the relationship.

Let me explain a little further. Many of the men I've been attracted to are strong, even powerful. They have a no guts, no glory attitude about life. They are leaders at work, usually somewhat extroverted, charismatic and know how to get their way. A lot of them are attracted to danger, fast cars, extreme sports, and sometimes, I think I might just be one of those dangerous things that they are turned on by.

Some of the men I meet who are like this will offer submission up rather easily when they meet a woman they are attracted to. Others, want their power taken away from them.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if the latter group can ever really offer up submission from the soul rather then always having to have it pryed away from them. I was hoping to here from those, male or female, who somehow dropped the Top me if you can attitude and what needed to happen for this to ensue.

I know, sounds like a bad rendition of Taming of the Shrew, doesn't it. ;-)

- LA

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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 9:52:39 AM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I know, sounds like a bad rendition of Taming of the Shrew, doesn't it. ;-)

- LA


I never really enjoyed that play to begin with!  And sorry for a bit of misunderstanding on my part in answering.

Honestly, if it's not part of the relationship "dance" or banter, I'm not sure it can be done. But then again... I interact and submit with the two dominants in my life in very different ways. Neither way is worse or better, it's just noticably different. Perhaps it really does boil down to chemistry - with some people they will want one thing, and with another, a different thing.

I'm trying to think of instances where I was quite seriously challenging if they could control me and I don't think I ever. Perhaps because I'm sometimes quite cynical and if I don't think they can, I wouldn't hang around.

Hrm... I'm not a daredevil after all. Curses!

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 9:56:56 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Going by my own experience I'm not sure if that's a daredevil or someone who just needs to know you walk the walk and therefore tests you. It seems to be more common for a femsub to test a dom in the beginning to see if he really will draw the line. To know I'm safe, I have to know where the line is. The only way to do that is to test it. Like a dog with an electric fence, they need to experience that little ouch that shows them 'this far and no farther'.

Of course once we are reassured that he will tighten the reins if necessary then we don't need to do this very much. Afterward, that's what play is for. Plus the occasional discussion of why he isn't enforcing rules anymore when he begins to slack off which is natural. If I'm well behaved he doesn't have anything to enforce, but without him at least noticing that I'm well behaved I will slack off. Two way street.

As to whether you're meeting people who just need this reassurance in physical form in the beginning or someone who just likes the heavy play, no help there. But personally I couldn't be a stepford sub from day one. I needed the teaching which included the occasional yank of hair or raised eyebrow or whatever.


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Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 10:08:21 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

sorry for a bit of misunderstanding on my part in answering.


Gosh, my OP was pretty fuzzy, no need for apologies.

And as for you being a daredevil, I'm sure you can find a little daredevil costume and play one from time to time ;-)

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 10:10:16 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic

quote:

- Are you or have you ever been a daredevil submissive?
Yes I am.
- When you do so, are you only looking for the thrill of the dynamic?
There are other dimensions that I would like to visit. I get my thrills by entertaining myself
- Have you ever found yourself starting off like this and then wanting to offer your submission up more easily down the road?
I cannot say. I have very little dating experience.

- Was it a question of just finding the right person to do this with to start giving up the power voluntarily?
Yes



Ok lil daredevil. Explain further please.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 10:11:24 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I'm not sure if that's a daredevil or someone who just needs to know you walk the walk and therefore tests you.


Me neither, which is why I am starting this thread. I don't expect the type of man I'm describing as the type of man that would submit to just anyone, so it stands to reason that they want to test me.

What I'm trying to gauge is when is it a test and when is it thrill seeking. That is a little trickier.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 10:25:56 AM   
pyroaquatic


Posts: 1535
Joined: 12/4/2006
From: Pyroaquatica
Status: offline 		My Will must be earned by the best possible match.

Chess is a good start.

Whenever those ethereal qualities arise am quite sure we would be keeping each other.


< Message edited by pyroaquatic -- 4/11/2010 10:28:38 AM >

_____________________________

You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 10:33:24 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

Are you or have you ever been a daredevil submissive?


no.

it hasn't been this slave's experience to perceive submission as a commodity to barter with, a gift bestowed upon another or a prize to be won, once one has earned it by proving themselves worthy or capable of "drawing it out".

someone looking for their dominance to be challenged, tested or limited in order to accept this slave's submission, would have no interest pursuing her.

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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 10:34:57 AM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline

Great topic.  I have some experience with these types, and for me, whether or not they are worth the emotional toll is based on their motivations for behaving in this manner.  Why are they a 'daredevil sub' and what is their motivation for both asking to be dominating/opening up to the idea, but then seeming to need to be overpowered every time?  The reasons can vary:

1) he's mostly vanilla, and kink is his 'flavor of the month' - he thinks this is the way a submissive should behave in order to be interesting prey
2) he's a fairly savvy manipulator and knows how to "make" women top him; he insists on being in control, and by manipulating the process and playing the "catch me if you can...oh you caught me..oh you didn't, I was faking!" he can be in control all the time
3) he desperately wants to be a submissive but he's terrified of being boring, so the pendulum swings back too far the other way. he tries to hard to be a brat because he doesn't want to appear 'easy.'
4) he's honestly conflicted about his desires to submit. 

While it's hard to get a man to talk (honestly and transparently) about *feelings* in the early part of a relationship, and it's also often in territory where the answer is, "I honestly have no idea why I feel this way, act this way, or do these things," the only way I have gotten to the bottom of it is by asking, talking about it, observing.  As intimacy grows, there comes a point in my experience where I just have to tell it like it is: I need unconditional surrender. I don't dominate as a silly game. I won't be manipulated.  I am not a puppet.  I need honest surrender.  Once I put all this on the table, he can accept it and work with me or he can walk away. 

Sometimes it's just a healthy mix of self preservation, male pride and fear that keep a man behaving the way you describe - and as soon as he's able to be honest, it strips away.  But beware the other type, the manipulator, who really just thinks he's the best button-pusher in the world (I find that "dominants" who say they want to "find their submissive side" are in this category a lot) but insists on keeping control by making it a cat and mouse game and then only surrendering on his terms. 

All you can do is be honest about your own feelings and motivations, and also be very clear about your expectations.  But with men, don't expect them to be able to articulate everything honestly and effortlessly.  In many cases, he's just confused.

Akasha


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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 10:46:50 AM   
DWCskitten


Posts: 199
Joined: 3/2/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
- Are you or have you ever been a daredevil submissive?

Not really. The only time i toyed with it was when i was still "officially" 'nilla and testing out how submission felt.
quote:


- When you do so, are you only looking for the thrill of the dynamic?

When i was still 'nilla and toyed with it, via the faux resistance/overpowerment encounters i'd have, it was VERY thrilling.
quote:


- Have you ever found yourself starting off like this and then wanting to offer your submission up more easily down the road?

Once i discovered bdsm, i gave it up wholeheartedly and without reservation. There was no more toying with resistance.
quote:


- Was it a question of just finding the right person to do this with to start giving up the power voluntarily?

See previous answer.

~kitten~



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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 1:44:34 PM   
Wheldrake


Posts: 477
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
1) he's mostly vanilla, and kink is his 'flavor of the month' - he thinks this is the way a submissive should behave in order to be interesting prey
2) he's a fairly savvy manipulator and knows how to "make" women top him; he insists on being in control, and by manipulating the process and playing the "catch me if you can...oh you caught me..oh you didn't, I was faking!" he can be in control all the time
3) he desperately wants to be a submissive but he's terrified of being boring, so the pendulum swings back too far the other way. he tries to hard to be a brat because he doesn't want to appear 'easy.'
4) he's honestly conflicted about his desires to submit. 


I suspect there may be a couple of additional possibilities:

5) he enjoys the struggle and the sense of being overpowered more than he enjoys submission itself;
6) he needs to know, and periodically be reminded, that the woman he's submitting to is strong enough to overcome his resistance.

I'm only guessing, however, since I've never been very daredevilish myself. If I were going to be daredevilish, though, it would be mostly for reason (6).



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RE: Deconstructing the daredevil submissive - 4/11/2010 2:06:02 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Me neither, which is why I am starting this thread. I don't expect the type of man I'm describing as the type of man that would submit to just anyone, so it stands to reason that they want to test me.

What I'm trying to gauge is when is it a test and when is it thrill seeking. That is a little trickier.

- LA


I hope to God there isn't anyone out there who submits to just anyone. "Go run intraffic" "Yes Sir" Splat! Not a good idea

As to when it's a test and when it's thrill seeking? You need to sit him down, fairly early on and explain how it works. Want a spanking? Ask for it.

Honestly, lots of people are coming out of relationships where they never got what they needed or wanted. Where they were ridiculed for their needs. Or tested to see if they really loved their ex, then they would go without anything they expressed a need for.

When you come from one of these, it doesn't occur to you to ask for something because you have been painfully taught what a bad idea that is. So the dominant needs to lead the way. "Why are you acting like this? What do you need/want? Pain play?" "Ask for it, say 'please may I have a spanking'". And then give it. If you learned the only way to get your needs met was to act out, you need to learn that now you can only get them met by asking for them.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


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