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RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 7:18:38 AM

slavekal

Posts: 1486
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline

It is not a title to be given. It is an adjective. My desires, my behavior, the calluses on my knees tells me that that is what I am. Where did you get the idea that most submissives act dominant? What are you basing that statement on?

_____________________________

"The Courage to Submit: the submissive male's guide to finding a dominant woman"
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-courage-to-submit-the-guide-for-the-submissive-male-seeking-a-dominant-woman/5968917

(in reply to PravdaIsvestia)

Post #: 21

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 7:33:06 AM

UniqueRaven

Posts: 1237
Joined: 9/30/2009
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

i will answer your question, even though your profile isn't very nice.

i'm a slave because i've always known i am one. i didn't need anyone to give me the title.

i am a very strong, confident woman. Sometimes this can be confused with Dominance, but i really don't have a Dominant personality - i am a woman with a submissive personality who sometims uses her strength and confidence to hide the fact that on the inside i'm scared, and sometimes overwhelmed. Most never see that, though, it is the Owner that is right for me who realizes that about me.

i tend to see submission as an action instead of a state of being. i think it's very hard to actually define someone as submissive - i think it's much easier to define someone as Dominant than someone as submissive, really. But that's a different thread.

Good luck with whatever you're working on.

_____________________________

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?" ~Snoopy (Charles Schultz)

My blog is at http://takinghishand.wordpress.com

(in reply to PravdaIsvestia)

Post #: 22

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 7:53:36 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven
i tend to see submission as an action instead of a state of being. i think it's very hard to actually define someone as submissive - i think it's much easier to define someone as Dominant than someone as submissive, really. But that's a different thread.

OK, probably foolishly, I'll give it a go. This is my own current state of thinking on it and not intended to be any sort of ultimate truth.

Starting at the individual act and building up.

To submit is to obey the orders of another.
One becomes "submissive" to another person when there is a general pattern of submitting going on in relation to that person.
One becomes "submissive" in the relationship sense when they choose relationships where this occurs
One becomes "submissive" as a general personality trait when they generally submit as a default action in life as a whole.

I don't think it's hard to define at all. It's just a matter of scoping. I personally find the last of those groupings fascinating (no big surprise since that's what Carol is.. I'd predictably have a bias) because at that point, it changes from a role attribute to a personality attribute. For instance, dominant as I am, I submit to my bosses at work... that is a part of the role of being an employee. That's a way different thing than what Carol does.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

Post #: 23

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 8:10:52 AM

UniqueRaven

Posts: 1237
Joined: 9/30/2009
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Starting at the individual act and building up.

To submit is to obey the orders of another.
One becomes "submissive" to another person when there is a general pattern of submitting going on in relation to that person.
One becomes "submissive" in the relationship sense when they choose relationships where this occurs
One becomes "submissive" as a general personality trait when they generally submit as a default action in life as a whole.

Just discussing.

i see submission as more than just simple obedience - as a matter of fact, for slaves it is often broken down into serve, submit, obey, with obedience being separate from submission.

Submission is actually an act of surrendering - by definition as well:

1. To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.
2. To subject to a condition or process.

i agree with all the patterns of definition you've created above, from a functional standpoint.

i do think though that when it comes down to the specific individual and whether he/she is submissive, or not, it becomes much more hazy, as that act of surrendering is a vast and broad category, with people falling all sorts of places along the curve.

Which is one of the reasons i don't begin to try to identify or categorize the submission of others - we are all, simply, unique.

ETA - i also don't believe someone is a slave just because her Master says she is. i've seen enough examples to the contrary now to know that this is not always true. Ooooh, controversy, hee hee!

< Message edited by UniqueRaven -- 4/14/2010 8:20:06 AM >

_____________________________

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?" ~Snoopy (Charles Schultz)

My blog is at http://takinghishand.wordpress.com

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 24

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 8:23:45 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Starting at the individual act and building up.

To submit is to obey the orders of another.
One becomes "submissive" to another person when there is a general pattern of submitting going on in relation to that person.
One becomes "submissive" in the relationship sense when they choose relationships where this occurs
One becomes "submissive" as a general personality trait when they generally submit as a default action in life as a whole.

Just discussing.

i see submission as more than just simple obedience - as a matter of fact, for slaves it is often broken down into serve, submit, obey, with obedience being separate from submission.

Submission is actually an act of surrendering - by definition as well:

1. To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.
2. To subject to a condition or process.

i agree with all the patterns of definition you've created above, from a functional standpoint.

i do think though that when it comes down to the specific individual and whether he/she is submissive, or not, it becomes much more hazy, as that act of surrendering is a vast and broad category, with people falling all sorts of places along the curve.

Which is one of the reasons i don't begin to try to identify or categorize the submission of others - we are all, simply, unique.

I'm a little confused with this part. How is obedience seen as separate from submission. I mean if you surrender your will..What does that mean in practical terms other than following another persons lead and in order to be able to do that one would have to be obedient..If not then your exercising your will over theirs.

Maybe I've missed your point.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

Post #: 25

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 8:40:05 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

To me, a submissive is one that has a desire to please another, and to do things they might not necessarily want to do, as long as it pleases their D type. Some additionally crave direction.

Note what jbcurious said. Being a submissive does not mean she sits around and waits for a Dominant to make her decisions. She is capable of making her own decisions but wants to submit. Until she finds someone to sub to, she just doesn't give it away to anyone.

I've seen plenty of submissives that were "in control" without being overly dominant outwardly. Not saying she is..Just going off of what you've said :>

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 26

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 8:47:53 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven
i agree with all the patterns of definition you've created above, from a functional standpoint.

Yeah, but I'm an engineer at heart. I seek practical, functional definitions of the things I do rather than metaphysical ones.

So, for instance, you broke it down into serve/submit/obey. Submit and obey are one and the same thing -- or at least when I read sociology and psychology papers they are. Serve is different and it, in my mind, has nothing to do with either dominance or submission. Good leaders serve the organizations they lead. Carol and I both serve the relationship.

i do think though that when it comes down to the specific individual and whether he/she is submissive, or not, it becomes much more hazy, as that act of surrendering is a vast and broad category, with people falling all sorts of places along the curve.
Heh, humans are complex. No argument there. What I think is that ANY time you try to slice and dice a human being, it is never going to capture the totality of that. That doesn't mean that the analysis is worthless though. It just means that it is incomplete. In this case, I'm looking at one specific thing and those categories serve to highlight the differences in that vein (namely, the difference between role based submission and personality trait based submission). Think of it like saying, "There are two kinds of people in the world, men and women." That distinction is hardly meaningless. But calling me a "man" is certainly an incomplete description which serves to highlight certain attributes only.

Which is one of the reasons i don't begin to try to identify or categorize the submission of others - we are all, simply, unique.
*chuckles* it's an engineer thing. It's just the way my brain works.

ETA - i also don't believe someone is a slave just because her Master says she is. i've seen enough examples to the contrary now to know that this is not always true. Ooooh, controversy, hee hee! Ultimate reality here is that there is no such thing as "slave" in the sense that we mean it. Without some sort of canonical BDSM dictionary, the word has no meaning. So Carol is my slave to US because we agree that it is so. You are a slave because you think you are. Whether or not *I* think you are is kind of totally irrelevant nor could either of us ever "win" such a debate if we disagreed.

I can say certain factual things along the lines of "Carol obeys me all the time without fail." You could line those factual statements up and decide if that added up to "slave" in your head. Others could do the same. But we can never, as a community, all agree on that. None of that analysis, agreement, or disagreement would change the reality of our marriage.

Just for the record, I don't think an awful lot of the subs on these boards are submissive. Nor do I think that a lot of the slaves are "slaves". I also know for a fact that there are a great many people here who do not see me as either dominant or a "master". If Carol posted more, there'd be a lot of folks who wouldn't see her as either submissive or slave. And all of that thinking means absolutely nothing -- not even that they'd be a bad partner in relation to me since people change when they enter into a relationship.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

Post #: 27

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 8:48:00 AM

lally2

Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

i will answer your question, even though your profile isn't very nice.
.

- im going to have to go and look now - and i was about to sign off

ETA: - jeeze, i see what you mean!!!

< Message edited by lally2 -- 4/14/2010 8:50:44 AM >

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

Post #: 28

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 9:09:48 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

So, for instance, you broke it down into serve/submit/obey. Submit and obey are one and the same thing -- or at least when I read sociology and psychology papers they are. Serve is different and it, in my mind, has nothing to do with either dominance or submission. Good leaders serve the organizations they lead. Carol and I both serve the relationship.

Either one of those could be used in the terms in which you lay out for serve. We obey the laws of the land..We obeyed our teachers..so on and so on..The essence being the same.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 29

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 9:10:12 AM

littleone35

Posts: 2828
Joined: 2/17/2005
Status: offline

I was born submissive it is not something i chose it was inborn. I alwys tried to please others. Yes i am am submissive but in school where i teach 3 and 4 year olds i am the one in control. The other day i asked Master does he think i could ever be aDomme (not that i have any interest in that area just thuoght i would see what he said). He said no sweetheart you do not have a dominant vone in your bodyand a submissive soul That being said i submit to only one and that is my wonderful Master.

Matt's littleone

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 30

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 9:16:50 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleone35

I was born submissive it is not something i chose it was inborn. I alwys tried to please others. Yes i am am submissive but in school where i teach 3 and 4 year olds i am the one in control. The other day i asked Master does he think i could ever be aDomme (not that i have any interest in that area just thuoght i would see what he said). He said no sweetheart you do not have a dominant vone in your bodyand a submissive soul That being said i submit to only one and that is my wonderful Master.

Matt's littleone

There's a big difference with being "in control" and "IN CONTROL" if you know what I mean.

The latter being over the top and in your face, of course.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to littleone35)

Post #: 31

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 9:32:30 AM

jbcurious

Posts: 717
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

To me, a submissive is one that has a desire to please another, and to do things they might not necessarily want to do, as long as it pleases their D type. Some additionally crave direction.

Note what jbcurious said. Being a submissive does not mean she sits around and waits for a Dominant to make her decisions. She is capable of making her own decisions but wants to submit. Until she finds someone to sub to, she just doesn't give it away to anyone.

I've seen plenty of submissives that were "in control" without being overly dominant outwardly. Not saying she is..Just going off of what you've said :>

Thank you Steven.

I know that I appear quite dominant at times... it's called self preservation. I've been single for 26 years and a single mom since my daughter was 2 ... Show me the mechanic that doesn't add an extra 200.00 to the bill when a single woman walks through the door...they're few and far between,

I was involved in the Cogen Power buisness... at a conference I was the only woman in a group of 200 men from all over the world, I dealt with CEO's from companys like G.E., Stewart & Stevenson and Dow...you don't last if you show submission... I adopted the attitudes nessesary to insure a comfortable lifestyle for my daughter and myself... what can I say... Old habits die hard but I'm much softer then I used to be...

_____________________________

'Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.'

I have an explosive personality...

(in reply to Icarys)

Post #: 32

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 9:34:44 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littleone35
I was born submissive it is not something i chose it was inborn. I alwys tried to please others. Yes i am am submissive but in school where i teach 3 and 4 year olds i am the one in control. The other day i asked Master does he think i could ever be aDomme (not that i have any interest in that area just thuoght i would see what he said). He said no sweetheart you do not have a dominant vone in your bodyand a submissive soul That being said i submit to only one and that is my wonderful Master.

Which highlights why I think it's important to separate out personality traits from role traits. All of us have both in play all the time. In a perfect world, we would find ourselves mostly in roles where the role traits and personality traits aligned. It's also worth noting that no personality and no role are 100% dominant or submissive. As always, real life exists in shades of gray.

The person who caused me to do this analysis to start with (a self-identified slave) is the exact opposite from you. Her personality traits are clearly dominant, yet she chooses the role of slave within her primary relationship. That doesn't make her more or less "true" nor does it make the quality of her submission better or worse. It just helps to understand her as a person which is important to me since she's my friend. More importantly, comparing and contrasting her with Carol helped me to understand Carol much better.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to littleone35)

Post #: 33

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 10:07:23 AM

pegbundy

Posts: 565
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline

*shrugs* Master tells me I am.

[/quote]

Exactly this. And, having been told, I tried it on and it fits. My entire life makes more sense to me when seen in this light. Therefore, I don't think I am submissive. I know it, as surely as I know anything about myself.

(in reply to zephyroftheNorth)

Post #: 34

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 10:15:06 AM

thishereboi

Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

So are you researching for a paper? Or a book? Seeing as you have asked the same question with a different slant in multiple forums, with no visable profile.

the.dark.

I saw the "why are you a master thread also" I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt and then I read this one http://www.collarchat.com/m_3160246/mpage_4/key_/tm.htm#3161591

Now I have a feeling he invented this name to troll. Makes me wonder what his real name is.

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 35

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 10:18:59 AM

DomMeinCT

Posts: 2355
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline

I think he's the sockmonkey of the OP of that other thread.

_____________________________

The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances:
if there is any reaction, both are transformed.
~ Carl Jung

(in reply to thishereboi)

Post #: 36

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 10:24:29 AM

beltainefaerie

Posts: 610
Joined: 4/15/2006
Status: offline

Master and I have a tendency to use the words submissive and slave somewhat interchangeably. I am submissive because I crave service, need to help make others more happy/comfortable and prefer to be controlled. I actively enjoy having others make decisions and, while I can be dominant in work settings or when necessary, I overall prefer to take orders rather than give them and to let someone else take the wheel . It doesn't hurt (no pun intended) that I am also a masochistic match for his sadism. ; )

(in reply to DomMeinCT)

Post #: 37

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 11:06:06 AM

UniqueRaven

Posts: 1237
Joined: 9/30/2009
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
I'm a little confused with this part. How is obedience seen as separate from submission. I mean if you surrender your will..What does that mean in practical terms other than following another persons lead and in order to be able to do that one would have to be obedient..If not then your exercising your will over theirs.

Maybe I've missed your point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

So, for instance, you broke it down into serve/submit/obey. Submit and obey are one and the same thing -- or at least when I read sociology and psychology papers they are. Serve is different and it, in my mind, has nothing to do with either dominance or submission. Good leaders serve the organizations they lead. Carol and I both serve the relationship.

Submitting and obeying are two different things.

i can submit without obeying - what if my Owner tells me to make him tea, and instead i lie on the floor next to him until he picks up a crop and whips me, and essentially forces me to go make him tea? i submitted to the whipping, but i did not obey.

Or, i can obey without submitting - service slaves do this all the time. They obey commands such as housecleaning and making tea, but they do not submit their bodies for use. And yes, they are exercising their will in this regard - which is why submission and obedience are two different things.

Submission is surrender. Obedience is simply doing as you're told. Two different things. If you want to break it down into simple dictionary definitions i can do that too, but i'd rather not.

Jeff, i'm thinking about your other points - and i agree we have the engineer vs. the yoga teacher thought processes going on, hee hee! That's part of what makes it all fun, though.....

< Message edited by UniqueRaven -- 4/14/2010 11:09:13 AM >

_____________________________

"My life has no purpose, no direction, no aim, no meaning, and yet I'm happy. I can't figure it out. What am I doing right?" ~Snoopy (Charles Schultz)

My blog is at http://takinghishand.wordpress.com

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 38

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 11:11:11 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

It's also worth noting that no personality and no role are 100% dominant or submissive. As always, real life exists in shades of gray.

Slight derail:

Reminds me of a saying I had.."There are no blacks and whites but infinite shades of gray".

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 39

RE: What exactly makes you think that you are Submissive? - 4/14/2010 11:16:33 AM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

Submitting and obeying are two different things.

i can submit without obeying - what if my Owner tells me to make him tea, and instead i lie on the floor next to him until he picks up a crop and whips me, and essentially forces me to go make him tea? i submitted to the whipping, but i did not obey.

Or, i can obey without submitting - service slaves do this all the time. They obey commands such as housecleaning and making tea, but they do not submit their bodies for use. And yes, they are exercising their will in this regard - which is why submission and obedience are two different things.

Submission is surrender. Obedience is simply doing as you're told. Two different things. If you want to break it down into simple dictionary definitions i can do that too, but i'd rather not.

Of course this is splitting hairs over definitions..Mine are obviously different. They all pretty much fall under the same group and if I'm not getting the whole package it aint worth having.

I wouldn't call anything submitting where I had to beat you until you gave in.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to UniqueRaven)

Post #: 40

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