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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 7:16:26 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		If we take the point then that media content does influence behaviour, as you seem to suggest(?), such that this apparent trend is of concern to you - it then seems to me that it is the apparent message that concerns you rather than that this ability to influence exists or that anyone should take advantage of it.

If the messages apparently being conveyed were more in line with your own social and political ethics, would you be just as concerned I wonder?

E

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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 7:27:20 AM   
Sanity


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Theres a not-so-subtle subtext to what you're writing, E. Your words are telling me that you feel guilty because you like the fact that they're pushing your own brand of politics subliminally, on shows that they present as "entertainment".

And so you're trying to divert blame onto me in order to alleviate that feeling of guilt, aren't you?


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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 7:34:22 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		What an interesting imagination you have Sanity.

My position is that one cannot argue that violent TV shows do not breed a violent population if one then wishes to argue that shows featuring other forms of behaviour have great influence on their viewers towards similar emulation of the behaviours displayed.

Further that it is a silly argument to say that such influence does not exist and is not taken advantage of.

Further still that the susceptibility of individuals to such influence is likely related to their intellectual discernment and educational achievement level; the lower either of these the greater the influence.

And in relation to your concerns therefore, it is apparent to me that if the "messages" were favourable to your social and political ethics then you should see no problem at all with their presence in shows.

E

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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 7:41:14 AM   
Sanity


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http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/guilt_shame/


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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 7:41:40 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Theres a not-so-subtle subtext to what you're writing, E. Your words are telling me that you feel guilty because you like the fact that they're pushing your own brand of politics subliminally, on shows that they present as "entertainment".

And so you're trying to divert blame onto me in order to alleviate that feeling of guilt, aren't you?

Wow Sanity,not since Chubby Checker has anyone done that dance so well.
Twist,it goes like this,twist.....

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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 7:42:36 AM   
Sanity


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Its classic behavior, E.


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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 7:44:06 AM   
Lucylastic


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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 7:44:10 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		I've answered your question Sanity. Now how about you answer mine instead of evading it? Or is it actually that you feel guilt and shame that TV et al has pushed messages favouring your ideals for so long and now aware of this factor you now also feel a little fear of being undone by the apparent change in the messages?

E 

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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 7:53:24 AM   
Sanity


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I answered you when I wrote that "Its not so much what they're selling, its the idea that we're being controlled to some extent, in this example for profit and for political gain... ".


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I've answered your question Sanity. Now how about you answer mine instead of evading it? Or is it actually that you feel guilt and shame that TV et al has pushed messages favouring your ideals for so long and now aware of this factor you now also feel a little fear of being undone by the apparent change in the messages?

E 


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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 7:59:15 AM   
Sanity


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From the OP (emphasis added):

quote:



"...the goal is that viewers won't really notice that Tina Fey is tossing a plastic bottle into the recycle bin, or that a minor character on "Law and Order: SVU" has switched to energy-saving light bulbs.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger

So how is it "subliminal" if it's right in your fuckin' face?


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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 8:08:34 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		So your concern is that advertising, product placement and now apparent behaviour placement is an attempt at controlling us for profit or political or other gain?

This having been a constant throughout, again I charge that your concern is not as you state it but rather it is that the messages you interpret are ones you find contrary to your social and political ideals. Otherwise you should have made this post at any time since June 2006 or, given the lack of bias you state as to the nature of your concerns, you should have provided a variety of examples that demonstrated how messages favourable to your causes are also being promoted and that these are also of concern to you.

E



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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 8:20:31 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		By the way Sanity - thank you for this thread - at least it dilutes the proportion of conspiracy theorist threads. It comes to something when I think to myself "I wish Sanity would start a thread" or "I do miss Sanity".

Unless of course youre positing behaviour placement as some sort of conspiracy?

E

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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 8:20:56 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So your concern is that advertising, product placement and now apparent behaviour placement is an attempt at controlling us for profit or political or other gain?

This having been a constant throughout, again I charge that your concern is not as you state it but rather it is that the messages you interpret are ones you find contrary to your social and political ideals. Otherwise you should have made this post at any time since June 2006 or, given the lack of bias you state as to the nature of your concerns, you should have provided a variety of examples that demonstrated how messages favourable to your causes are also being promoted and that these are also of concern to you.

E


I guess Sanity's message wasn't subliminal enough ?
In truth I don't really think he is capable of subtleness far less subliminal.

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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 8:35:40 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Far from being subliminal Mike, it was so obvious even a libtard like me saw straight through it in under ten seconds!

E

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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 8:40:43 AM   
vincentML


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Status: offline 		Control is a pretty strong term to use but TV shows may promote acceptability of socio-political themes on the Left or the Right. And it is a little difficult to judge whether the shows are not just responding to the current cultural mileu. Green was already being heavily promoted I think and the shows are selling themselves by promoting acceptability of the cultural theme. That should not astonish. It's a bottom line business after all.

In the midst of the Civil Rights movement and right after the passage of the Civil Rights Act (1964?) Brit TV had a show called "Til Death Do Us Part" which was followed in the States in 1971 by "All in the Family." Both centered upon the unflattering portrait of a lower middle class white man with decidedly racist opinions. We laughed at Archie Bunker for four or five years and I would argue (without documentation) that the show contributed to easing the way to acceptance by Whites of a new status for Blacks in the US. I recall the watercooler arguments were pretty fervent.

Other contemporaneous events must also be considered for their impact. An attempt was made to integrate the schools by busing students for example which created turmoil in the short term but may have had a positive outcome in the longer term. TV shows do not stand alone in their influence.

The same was true for shows that promoted acceptability of gay life style in the '90s I think. Other events preceded and occured at the same time in the real world.

My social opinions are left of center fwiw but I am skeptical of anthropocentric GW so I am not happy with this particular trend but I suck it up and live with it.

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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 8:43:15 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

So your concern is that advertising, product placement and now apparent behaviour placement is an attempt at controlling us for profit or political or other gain?



Thats close to what the thread is supposed to be about, yes.

quote:



This having been a constant throughout, again I charge that your concern is not as you state it but rather it is that the messages you interpret are ones you find contrary to your social and political ideals. Otherwise you should have made this post at any time since June 2006 or, given the lack of bias you state as to the nature of your concerns, you should have provided a variety of examples that demonstrated how messages favourable to your causes are also being promoted and that these are also of concern to you.

E





The article was just written, I apologize if the timing is not to your liking.

Lets try to boil this down and get back on topic, if we may. My position is that subliminal messaging is here to stay and that its a little bit scary, especially when politics is added, and with the way that the behavioral sciences are advancing so rapidly. Yes, it bothers me if its my politics or if its your politics that are being sold to us as we laugh along to the various soundtracks.

What is your position. Is it okay if its "green" politics, behavior and merchandise that are being sold? Do the ends justify the means in other words, so long as its the "right" message?





< Message edited by Sanity -- 4/18/2010 8:45:39 AM >

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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 8:48:54 AM   
Sanity


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Good post vincent, thank you. Your recollection of the "All In The Family" series reminded me of M*A*S*H as well, and the lessons Alan Alda taught us all about war, and drinking, and casual sex.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Control is a pretty strong term to use but TV shows may promote acceptability of socio-political themes on the Left or the Right. And it is a little difficult to judge whether the shows are not just responding to the current cultural mileu. Green was already being heavily promoted I think and the shows are selling themselves by promoting acceptability of the cultural theme. That should not astonish. It's a bottom line business after all.

In the midst of the Civil Rights movement and right after the passage of the Civil Rights Act (1964?) Brit TV had a show called "Til Death Do Us Part" which was followed in the States in 1971 by "All in the Family." Both centered upon the unflattering portrait of a lower middle class white man with decidedly racist opinions. We laughed at Archie Bunker for four or five years and I would argue (without documentation) that the show contributed to easing the way to acceptance by Whites of a new status for Blacks in the US. I recall the watercooler arguments were pretty fervent.

Other contemporaneous events must also be considered for their impact. An attempt was made to integrate the schools by busing students for example which created turmoil in the short term but may have had a positive outcome in the longer term. TV shows do not stand alone in their influence.

The same was true for shows that promoted acceptability of gay life style in the '90s I think. Other events preceded and occured at the same time in the real world.

My social opinions are left of center fwiw but I am skeptical of anthropocentric GW so I am not happy with this particular trend but I suck it up and live with it.


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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 8:55:05 AM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Sanity please help me understand how a "green" message can be harmful in any way shape or form?
What's the issue here ...is recycling bad..is using energy efficiant light bulbs somehow perverse ?
I'm not sure where you are going with this.As Lady E and others have pointed out this sort of thing has been going on for quite some time,the only difference I see is the whole theme week quality to what NBC did....what with having a whole weeks worth of shows hit the same mark over and over.It should be pointed out though that none of this was actually subliminal...they were running commercials all through the week explaining exactly what they were doing and trumpeting the social responsibility aspect of it.
So wheres the beef?

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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 9:02:50 AM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		I think youre being overdramatic Sanity - the fact is that law and (more likely) audience ratings permitting, this sort of thing is available and effective as a means of conveying messages designed to generate behaviours desired by their sponsors, whether this is to affect purchasing decisions or political ideals. Equally the point made by Vincent that media in trying to appeal to its desired audience will naturally seek to conform to the expectations of its audience is also valid - this area works in reverse too as the producers first task is to sell the show to its audience before trying to sell messages to them; if the messages do not appeal to the audience then they will switch off.

There is only a problem as to what the messages might be if they seek to incite or defame or in other ways are or have effects contrary to the law and the wider public interest. Thereafter any problems are likely to be subjective - that is that someone doesnt like the messages being promoted, which is kinda tough luck and again the remote should be their friend.

E

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RE: Behavior Placement - 4/18/2010 9:03:59 AM   
Sanity


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Please don't address me personally with all of your questions, mike. Ask the forum generally, and give everyone the opportunity to chime in.




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