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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/18/2010 11:15:55 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
Let them eat punches.

I don't advocate violence, but maybe -- devil's advocate here -- this'll cool down the white trash that mistakenly thinks it's the only group that knows how to 'bring it'. Coincidentally, The Daily Show made this same point a couple weeks ago -- it's like, eww, douche bag, you bring your registered gun to a protest, big man, except, oh wait, any dumbass can pull a fucking trigger, including my communist grandmother.


Carrying a weapon is not the same as pulling a trigger.

And your devils advocate argument boils down to "it's okay to use violence against someone if you really dislike what they have to say."

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 4/18/2010 11:17:12 PM >

(in reply to Silence8)
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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/19/2010 12:43:02 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jack45
Peter Bradley,June 2009, Cal State’s Brian Levin And The Case Of The “Hate Crime” That Wasn’t. (Guess Why Not)

In the future at least have the balls to include a link to the source. vdare does let everyione know you are a bigot but is a step up from stormfront.

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/19/2010 1:04:50 AM   
Termyn8or


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If this indicates anything, it is that the human race really hasn't grown up muc h since medeivil times, or maybe even tribal or caveman days. There is a big difference between the advancement of humans and the advancement of technology. In fact I see indications that point to devolution, and I see it all the time.

Is it more civilised to kill someone with a laser aimed assault rifle than a big rock ? I wasn't aware that there are different degrees of being dead. Are there less wars than before ? Are there less starving people ? Are there less children born in places where food is scarce ? Do people care about one another more now than many years ago ? Do people accept and discharge their responsibilities any more readily and without coersion ? Does the majority of people seek knowledge and enlightenment to a greater degree than before ?

If anyone can answer yes to any of those questions please do. I could use a bit of cheering up - or a good laugh.

T

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/19/2010 11:31:48 AM   
xbrand


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WOW !!! To answer one of your questions...YES it is more civilized to use a Lazer aim rifle, a Barrett 50 cal sniper rifle, you can shoot from over a mile away...than to use a big rock. One has got to get up and personal when using the rock. Things can possible go wrong , up close and personal.

And everyone should obtain a CCW permit for their Barrett 50's......make things equal. You wouldn't know if the other guy is packin' or not.

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/19/2010 9:45:42 PM   
Silence8


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quote:


Carrying a weapon is not the same as pulling a trigger.

And your devils advocate argument boils down to "it's okay to use violence against someone if you really dislike what they have to say."


Okay, it's not the same. But it's very, very similar. Satisfied?

Cry me a fucking river. Violence-idolizing, genocide-masturbating dodos got beaten up. If they liked it, would that make it all right with you?

Recognizing the potential consequences of other people's actions, which is absolutely all I've done, in no way equates with condoning these actions. It's called realpolitik, and progressives could use a strong dose of it.

The fact of the matter is that, despite all the idolatry that mass media throws at militias and other mountain monkeys, no one is scared of these idiots. The only thing to fear is -- not fear itself but -- a massively-funded government trying to oppress decent non-gun-toting citizens.

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 4/19/2010 9:46:28 PM >

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/19/2010 10:53:24 PM   
Termyn8or


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Watch it there Silence. There are a hell of alot more than you think and 200% of them are armed. By that I mean they will arm family and friends. I'd estimate about 3 million, which of course is only 1% of the people here, but that's still a hell of alot of people. What's more I'd say that about 65% of them are rational and don't make waves nor draw attention to themselves.

I am nearing the end of my life cycle, but if I were younger I would NEVER reveal much of what I reveal here. I have already revealed that I have machinery that can produce stealthed firearms. I mean strap around the wrist or whatever, all it takes is a good design. I have (barely) enough knowledge to do this.

I could make alot of money real fast but I choose not to, at this time. Even single use firearms made of plastic, even plastic ammo. I could bring it in for about $200 for a single use device. I could make at least twenty of them a day once I get started. I would then actually define the value of a human life in dollars.

People in these unorganized militias, law studiers and tax protesters, whatever you want to call them are not all stupid. Among our ranks are engineers, law professors, even LEOs. There are doctors and researchers, people from all walks of life. Bricklaters to nurses, clerks to clerics. One common goal. Sooner or later something will happen, but it probably won't be in my lifetime. You will see the true spirit of this coutry in the flames they ignite. If you are still around that is. Assuming you are young enough and do not die in a hospital or a terroist attack. BTW, take a step back and think which is more likely.

And everyone does not get torn to shreds like the fake KKK guys on the Springer show. They were clowns. The National alliance is a White pride group, NOT a White supremacy group. They never have advocated violence of any kind. Their founder, Dr. William Pierce was a well respected and educated Man, you can look up his credentials. If people could get their head out their ass and read The Turner Diaries, they would see that he was not stupid. You are not fucking with a bunch of knuckle dragging hicks here. These people are frequently underestimated and really, that is the folly of most losers, underestimating a foe, percieved or real.

And that's just one racial group, what about Farahkaan ? I doubt he is on a streetcorner selling crack. The guy did make some sense. Why haven't we heard anything lately ? Because they know the time is not right. They are likewise not stupid. I'll tell you this, if all the White pride and Black pride people with brains got together and just agreed to respect one another, we would be talking about one hell of a movement in this country. There would be no fucking way to keep a lid on it. If they can simply collaberate, and agree that they don't want to be nextdoor neighbors, but can indeed coexist they would be a serious force to be reckoned with. "Hey Honky, you want another Colt 45 ?". Whatever. The PTB try purposely to throw us together, too close together. We are not ready for it, well some are but many aren't. Throwing us together keeps us divided, and thus conquered.

And then they further that goal with these measures that appease only the most mentally lame among us, like hate crime laws. Tell me, just what is a fucking love crime ?

Yes, I assert that I am probably one of the most sane Men on this planet, but at the same time I am probably certifibly insane. A book report on Orwell's 1984 should explain it quite well.

But I don't take the red or the blue pill.

But take my word for it, there are going to be alot of changes in this country, and possibly sooner than I think. I don't know if I will still be here to see it, so be it.

T

(in reply to Silence8)
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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/19/2010 11:54:55 PM   
DomKen


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And you wonder why people call you a bigot?

Pierce was the worst sort of cowardly scum. The turner diaries aren't even pulp fiction quality. The NA is a violent hate group. I grew up around those sleezes and no amount of your protestations will change the facts. The only good thing about the neo nazi movement is that they're too damn stupid to be much of a threat nationally.

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/20/2010 12:02:35 AM   
Termyn8or


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Ken, this time you are really full of shit.

T

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/20/2010 12:34:18 AM   
Silence8


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I suspect that once homosexuality/ sexual liberality becomes mainstream -- which is already happening -- these groups, and religion for that matter, will lose much of their 'dialectical' appeal. Sometimes, when you release something from suppression, it can simply disappear, and people can go back to hunting small game, etc.

I'm only half-joking (I'm usually only half-joking).

I'm also not implying that you're gay.

I've said it before, gun control is fake progressivism, a sort of symbiotic liberalism. Personally, I couldn't care less about people's having guns -- I think we move toward a society where only people have guns, and the military does not exist, and the government is a secretary at best, where resources are naturally distributed in such a way that there's no incentive toward accumulation.

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/20/2010 12:54:00 AM   
LadyEllen


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I'm all for people having guns Silence8 (that we dont get to have them any more is simply wrong) but no military? That could be a disaster in the modern age if the aggressor has a few planes and naval ships. Yes there is the argument that no one sane would invade on the ground, but there is also the argument that no one who had air and sea power should need to.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/20/2010 1:17:53 AM   
Fellow


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Good passionate hate speech could be fun. I never heard one,  How does it really affect people? Do everybody become a hater?

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/20/2010 1:48:39 AM   
Termyn8or


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Interesting, but not quite in tune with human nature. What I am, which some disapprove of, happened from the earliest moment of my life and I realize that. I know my Mother and knew my Father, and had a chance to analyse them a bit. I know what kind of people she is and he was. Thus I can tell you a few things about them.

Money or not they were never into trinkets and bullshit like that. The only bling they ever wore were their wedding rings, and the occasional watch or necklace, and when so, those were usually gifts and worn to please the donor. If they needed a watch and had fifty grand in the bank they would buy a fifty buck watch as long as it wasn't really shitty looking and kept good time.

I have also talked to them both on many occasions about the early years. Things that I actually do not remember. Between all this I can draw a couple of conclusions. When I cried they did not automatically stick a bottle in my mouth nor did they try to immerse me into some visual experience via toys or pretty things. What they did was to pay attention.

Today kids are bombarded with all sorts of toys and shit, and actually those toys of today are designed to entice the Parents to buy. Time and time again what I see is that the kid would rather play with the box than the toy. This starts very early in life and is the basis for all future knowledge. Humans cannot advance until they understand the importance of this time in life.

Even with all the advantage I had it still took me half a lifetime to be able to consider myself an adult. You are here because you are different ? Bull shit. I am fifty times more different than anyone here. And like Kid Rock said, you will never meet a motherfucker quite like me. I have been separate from the masses for all my life, since as long as I can remember, and now I really appreciate that. This was not always so, not all times were good. But those times shaped my psyche to the point where I have an extremely good degree of control. I can see differences in different people and not only accept them but try to understand them, and I have had some succes in that area. Some say that makes me a bigot or a racist, and if I fit that definition so be it.

I was taught not to give a flying fuck of what others think of me. This alleviated almost all peer pressure. Not all, but most of it. I learned not to be afraid to be alone. One time I was in jail, in a dorm with probably forty guys, most of whom were laughing at this one guy, an older Black Man because he didn't know how to read. I stood alone and yelled "This fucking shit ain't funny" and a bunch of them shut the fuck up and a few came around and said things like "You know, you're right". I never went with trends or fashion, in fact I set it. Well not entirely, in Lakewood OH in the 1970s they were all wearing CPO shirts. Guess who was the first one. At first people were not impressed and even critical, but I kept wearing it and eventually everyone in the school who was cool had one. This bolstered my faith in myself, at least in that context.

When others were young they were off to toy stores, while I was off to bookstores. At five years old I was looking for books that might interest me, and the bigger the better. Some I had trouble carrying, but I got it done - I really wanted it. And fiction was not on my Christmas list, I wanted science, of just about any kind. While I wasn't all that interested in blue footed boobies or anteaters, science and technology were fascinating to me. Then the psychology textbook came up. Holy shit, this thing was really something else, and from the time it took me to read a college level freshman grade textbook on it at about eight years old, the whole world became a study of sorts.

Not that I was without problems. I got thrown in the DH, I hung with the worng crowd. Later I did drugs and all that. I stole, and alot worse. But later I somehow discovered guilt. Go ahead and fuck people over, in time you'll find that nothing they can do to you is worse than what you WILL eventually do to yourself. I believe that an approach of that sort can result in the truest and purest form of morality around, something that law nor even religion can hope to achieve.

Now if you give each and every kid in this world a background like that, including the good as well as the bad, I think we could have just about a utopia in about twenty years. But that's not what I see. The kid wants to look around the room and watch PEOPLE, but Mommy has a big fluffy who knows what the fuck right in front of his face. Get out the fucking way !

Maybe that what it is. For the most part I chose my own reading material, I had few toys, but they weren't so bad. The little Johnnie electonics kit with which I built a radio transmitter was pretty cool. The record player fascinated me, how the fuck do they do this ? And that is like from a five year old, me. If I was that way then, it came from before. I think there is too much distraction, let the kid go find what he wants. Get rid of the lead based paint and let him go teeth on the dog's balls for all I care. Let him direct himself. He can learn the shit he doesn't give a fuck about later, the point is that he is learning.

Try that, and watch the change in the world.

If I were to develop a superweapon that makes me invincable and therefore the dictator of the world, everyone would have more freedom than anyone does today. The law would be very simple. Burn a fattie and listen to some old hippie music and it'll come to you what that law might be.

Until that hapens, Men will provoke violence based on another's words, seek unreasonable revenge and make war. Also will be thieving conniving and cunning con artists who are not competent enough to get the time of day from me. We will have, well exactly what we have. And the old adage about sticks and stone may break my bones but words will never hurt me will be but a distant and remote old saying that holds no weight.

You get what you pay for.

T

(in reply to Silence8)
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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/20/2010 1:57:41 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

Good passionate hate speech could be fun. I never heard one,  How does it really affect people? Do everybody become a hater?


To me at least it's like watching any other sermon - the people who agree agreed at the start and someone like me finds it morbidly amusing.

Back to the topic - anywhere, any time, there will always be groups of people who strongly believe something distasteful. What reflects on a society is how they are treated.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Cry me a fucking river. Violence-idolizing, genocide-masturbating dodos got beaten up. If they liked it, would that make it all right with you?

Recognizing the potential consequences of other people's actions, which is absolutely all I've done, in no way equates with condoning these actions. It's called realpolitik, and progressives could use a strong dose of it.

The fact of the matter is that, despite all the idolatry that mass media throws at militias and other mountain monkeys, no one is scared of these idiots. The only thing to fear is -- not fear itself but -- a massively-funded government trying to oppress decent non-gun-toting citizens.



See the thing is, there are a lot of easily offended people in the world and I personally find them deplorable and would have no problem pelting them with rocks at every single media conference where they go on national tv to tell the world how much someone out there hurt their feelings. Seriously, maybe a few broken teeth will put the whole "hurt feelings" BS into perspective.

As hilarious as that would be on an individual level, I'd fully expect to go to jail for it, and the "they were saying something I didn't like" excuse wouldn't cut it for me. The thing about free speech is it's either free, or it's not. There's no middle ground.

So saying it's about 'recognizing the potential consequences' of actions is equivocating because it seems to only be brought up in cases like these, where the consequences happen to someone who is so distasteful that it's easy to say they were asking for it.

A woman goes to a bar in a short skirt, ends up getting raped. She didn't recognize the potential consequences of her actions.

A black guy goes to a redneck town with his white wife, ends up getting lynched. He didn't recognize the potential consequences of his actions.

A kid tells his parents he's gay, his father beats the shit out of him and throws him in the street. He didn't recognize the potential consequences of his actions.

See how bullshit that line sounds when applied to a sympathetic situation? It's so fucking easy to ignore deplorable situations when the deplorable situation ends up with something you agree with - nazis getting their comeuppance for example - but you have to look at the situation itself.

A person says something that many people find distasteful, and in a country that claims to protect free speech, gets assaulted for it. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/20/2010 2:06:42 AM   
Termyn8or


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"Seriously, maybe a few broken teeth will put the whole "hurt feelings" BS into perspective. "

How would you like to come over ? I couldn't have put it better myself.  "Stick and stones" y'know. People need to grow a skin.

T

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/20/2010 6:06:03 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

This is what a free society does, let people no matter how objectionable have their say so everyone knows what they're all about.

Is it? Try telling that to Natalie Gaines. I doubt she'll believe you.

_____________________________

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/20/2010 9:48:48 PM   
Silence8


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Do you think people are somehow 'naturally' violent?

My answer is affirmatively no. To conclude 'yes' is to ignore that our entire society is built upon both active and passive violence, in short, the active violence of war and the passive violence of bureaucracy, vertical social structures, monetary manipulation, and the ever-present threat of dying of cold, hunger, or lack of simple medical care.

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 4/20/2010 9:49:10 PM >

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/20/2010 9:50:28 PM   
Silence8


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So what do you think of holocaust denial, then? Should there be laws against it?

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/20/2010 9:52:32 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

I'm all for people having guns Silence8 (that we dont get to have them any more is simply wrong) but no military? That could be a disaster in the modern age if the aggressor has a few planes and naval ships. Yes there is the argument that no one sane would invade on the ground, but there is also the argument that no one who had air and sea power should need to.

E


You could scale it down slowly.

Don't the Swiss basically have something to this effect? Not much of a standing army, but every family has a gun and a swiss army knife (cliche, right?) in their attic?

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/20/2010 9:57:08 PM   
WolfeTone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

So what do you think of holocaust denial, then? Should there be laws against it?
No. people have the right to be wrong.
And are we talking denial or revisionism?

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RE: Hate speech in the USA - 4/20/2010 10:24:28 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfeTone

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

So what do you think of holocaust denial, then? Should there be laws against it?
No. people have the right to be wrong.
And are we talking denial or revisionism?


Either way. I believe a number of European countries have laws against denial.

Elisabella is right, though, we really shouldn't take pleasure in the hardships of these Nazis. (That last sentence isn't supposed to seem sarcastic.) (Seriously.) (Damn you, language!)

I'm not wholly convinced this event even happened. Who goes to a rally to beat up Nazis? I can't imagine anyone actually doing that. This could be a publicity stunt organized by the Nazis themselves. It's an easy scheme, it would seem.

These literal-Nazi-bashers do not reflect any progressives I've ever known.


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