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ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Wait a minute here, wasn't it just a week or two ago that Bill Clinton and Obama said that we need to curb the hatefull political rhetoric?
And now Obama is calling Az. "irresponsable?"


I'm listening to the Howie Carr Show (WRKO 680-am Boston)
They have a poll going , "Do you approve or dissaprove of the Az law?"
The results even in ultra liberal Massachusetts, "Approve 93% Dissaprove 7%"

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

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The problem is with the "on the face of it"... Laws are unconstitutional when they have the EFFECT of racial profiling, even if the wording doesn't say so.

As you say, and I agree; Mexican illegal workers are not the majority. The effect you speak about is human influence.

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Only pragmatic application in every case, on every occasion, to validate a person's legal right to be in the county, can the human affect be reduced any/or illuminated. However, due to special interest influence it won't happen. Trying to eliminate the name and racial/ethic background on employment applications would eliminate the need for 'Affirmative Action' but any movement in that direction is never considered. In this instance, there are many portals for acquiring government issued permits and licenses which can, and should, be used similarly.

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When there is a solution that would pragmatically address the people while in the line already required by law, which is not considered; it disclose agenda is a bigger consideration than solving the problem.

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End result: at some point, almost everybody who had filed paperwork had to file a separate mandamus lawsuit - and scores of people became "illegal immigrants" even though they complied with every letter of the law.

That isn't germane to the immigration issue; government inefficiency is subject for another thread. Although it is not unique to the US. I'm currently experincing my 2nd year of a 4-5 year estimated process of legal immigration. It is he way it is.

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Right now, illegal immigration is down dramatically.

You didn't provide any statistical evidence however to this point; illegal immigration is down for the same reason unemployment is up for the citizens of the US - there is no business incentive for growth and few places are hiring; including those who would hire illegal workers.

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ICE already said that because of Arpaio's high-profile racial profiling, they wouldn't accept illegal immigrants his deputies arrest.

It is both discouraging and disclosing that ICE, as an official government entity, choses to ignore enforcement of a law they are allegedly set up specifically to handle. Selective enforcement of any law, in my opinion, causes the problems on both sides of the law to escalate.

When being arrested for illegal immigration, or any crime, is a matter of 'bad luck' versus pragmatic consequence for a deliberate action taken; it creates a "what the hell - lets do it!" mindset. That mindset has created this problem which Arizona has decided address in the manner of this new Law. Only time will tell if it will work better than ICE's "what the hell" laissez-faire policy of enforcement.

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How would police go about deciding whom to stop when they go after illegal Canadians?

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As far as I know, it is already illegal to ask about racial and ethnic background on employment applications (except in positions where there's a genuine business need. When you need a black woman in her 20s as a model, it is of course legal).

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Did you know that in the USA, the total process takes up to 23 years?

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Manpower. ICE's agents are already extremely busy going after criminal aliens.

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

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How would police go about deciding whom to stop when they go after illegal Canadians?

By stopping everyone at a checkpoint.

So you would be in favor of increasing the boarder patrol by an order of magnitude of 100 and the attendant cost?

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As far as I know, it is already illegal to ask about racial and ethnic background on employment applications (except in positions where there's a genuine business need. When you need a black woman in her 20s as a model, it is of course legal).

Illegal to put on an application; however it IS legal to give 'bonus points' and other consideration under AA for testing in civil service jobs. For "equality" it would not be "futile" to illuminate that discriminatory and bigoted practice which assumes a person's inability to compete on equal terms.


It does not assume any such thing. You know that. Yet you posit this mindless analysis.
It assumes that those who recieve the bonus points earned them via prior discrimination. You may not like that analysis but it is the bassis of AA not what you would like it to mean.
Do you also feel that the bonus points given to veterans in civil service exams indicates that they are unable to compete on equal terms?

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Did you know that in the USA, the total process takes up to 23 years?

I'd support any effort to streamline that process as long as no matter what it is, everyone here illegally gets behind those affected by the current process.

I believe the current quota for Mexico is about 3000 to 5000 per year.
Would you be in favor of raising that to 5.000,000 per year with the attendent cost increases in the immigration service to deal with the increased case load if all of the current illegals were behind those already in line?

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Manpower. ICE's agents are already extremely busy going after criminal aliens.

The question I hear being asked is; "How do you tell a person is an "illegal" alien." I'll use your excuse to ask the same question of ICE turning a blind eye to the process; "How do you tell an illegal alien is a criminal?"

I will settle for an answer to your first question?
How do you tell if a person is an illegal?

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ORIGINAL: Sanity


Last I heard polls were showing approval ratings in the mid 70's in Arizona for the law, and the most bizarre thing thats been mentioned so far is that the Arizona law is virtually a carbon copy of our federal laws, yet its claimed to be racist and unconstitutional or even Nazi like. 

What do you call that, hyperbole?

What the bottom line for me is, once again we find the will of the people being ignored and even demonized by those in power.

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth



By stopping everyone at a checkpoint

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The question I hear being asked is; "How do you tell a person is an "illegal" alien." I'll use your excuse to ask the same question of ICE turning a blind eye to the process; "How do you tell an illegal alien is a criminal?"

Criminals are not conducting crime 24/7. Sometimes they just hang out, drive around, and do non-criminal activities. If during those activities they are stopped at a checkpoint verifying everyone's status - they may actually be doing their job and protecting people against criminal actions.

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife
In Hiibel the Court partially reversed its earlier ruling in Brown v Texas, but held to the principle that police may not detain a person for refusing to identify himself unless there is a reasonable suspicion that the person is involved in criminal activity.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
So you would be in favor of increasing the boarder patrol by an order of magnitude of 100 and the attendant cost?

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Yet you posit this mindless analysis.

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It assumes that those who receive the bonus points earned them via prior discrimination. You may not like that analysis but it is the basis of AA not what you would like it to mean.

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Do you also feel that the bonus points given to veterans in civil service exams indicates that they are unable to compete on equal terms?

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I believe the current quota for Mexico is about 3000 to 5000 per year.
Would you be in favor of raising that to 5.000,000 per year with the attendent cost increases in the immigration service to deal with the increased case load if all of the current illegals were behind those already in line?

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I will settle for an answer to your first question?
How do you tell if a person is an illegal?

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I will settle for an answer to your first question?
How do you tell if a person is an illegal?

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ou assume all illegals want to be US citizens;

Where have I made that assumption?

how do you substantiate that position?

Since I did not take that position I do not need to substantiate it.

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Guess what - being in the country without a visa or on an expired visa IS a criminal activity. You make a case FOR the Arizona law.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx
So you would be in favor of increasing the boarder patrol by an order of magnitude of 100 and the attendant cost?
No I would be for enforcement at the employer level; however my "favor" wasn't considered in the question or the response.

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How would police go about deciding whom to stop when they go after illegal Canadians?

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Guess what - being in the country without a visa or on an expired visa IS a criminal activity. You make a case FOR the Arizona law.

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It assumes that those who receive the bonus points earned them via prior discrimination. You may not like that analysis but it is the basis of AA not what you would like it to mean.
If "prior discrimination" can be confirmed

It was and thus the AA law.
But then you already knew that but still want to whine about it.


there are courts more than willing to hear the case and assign judgmental settlements. "Prior discrimination" of a group should not automatically assign bonus points to the individual.

That may be your uneducated opinion but it is the law and you live here and as you have suggested to others "if you don't like the law follow the process to change. All I can suggest is that you follow your own advice.

BTW - Go back far enough and MOST groups were discrimination against - why not give everyone 200 points like they used to do for spelling your name right on the SAT?

Please show me the the scoring protocol for the SAT that gives an applicant 200 points for spelling their name right...or is this some more of your anti-intellectual bullshit

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Guess what - being in the country without a visa or on an expired visa IS a criminal activity. You make a case FOR the Arizona law.

You obviously didn't take the time to look into the Supreme Court decisions that were listed.

Yes, being here illegally is criminal, but there is no legitimate way for the police to determine that unless they discover that fact while investigating a person for the suspicion of another crime.

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Do you also feel that the bonus points given to veterans in civil service exams indicates that they are unable to compete on equal terms?

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Loitering is a crime in most cities.

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The police do not have to prove anything; it is the person who must present proof they are here legally, Citizen birth certificate, SS#, Green Card. ......