RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (Full Version)

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lally2 -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 4:14:52 AM)

so why did my collie bitch hump the cat.  not for sex - why do cows (as opposed to bulls) hump each other - again not for sex. - its an act of dominance amongst animals and like it or not its a documented fact.

im not disagreeing that dogs are horny, goats are horney - everything is bloody horny - and if youre dog humps a pillow and cums, then im happy for him, really! -

why though, just because these animals are horny should it give grown adults the right to assume that theyre fair game.

fact is if you tried to fuck a lion youd get youre head bitten off - so its more a case of pick youre victim wisely and go from there i guess.

in the end its the arrogance that blows my mind.  society tells us that its not ok to rape a woman, but bestiality types think it is ok to rape a dog/cat/goat/horse/ whatever - someone explain to me how that is acceptable, im having a really big problem with it.

at the moment all that i can see are people tryng to convince themselves that the animals love it and so its all ok and acceptable.

and just one other point - people when mentioning limits list, scat, knife play, kids and animals - at the start of this thread people assumed it would get pulled - why is that do you think - because on one level or another people know that to abuse an animal that has no say, whether its been conditioned, trained or just plain forced is ethically and morally wrong




DesFIP -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 4:32:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
i personally dont believe that animals should be kept in sheds and artificially inseminated.  i believe our livestock should be allowed to roam and graze, live in herds and produce babies the normal way -


Standardbreds and quarterhorses can be artificially inseminated. Thoroughbreds cannot legally. But doing it naturally means the mares have a large rate of being wounded or killed. Stallions will happily rape mares too young to survive.

Is this your idea of a good and natural way? Because in my world it's safer for the mares to be in a chute, protected by a fence so the stallion can mount her without killing her.

But then, I like horses and I know just how deadly stallions can be.




lally2 -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 4:57:06 AM)

i live in a beautiful place called the New Forest, where ponies roam free - stallions are put out every year to cover the mares and so far as i know there are no reported cases of mares being killed by stallions.

ive had horses all my life i not only love my horse i consider him one of my best friends.  watching him with a mare over the fence yesterday who is clearly in season, his gentleness and interest toward her was really lovely to watch.

animals that are valuable are covered in the natural way, ive participated in that more than once and i have never ever seen a stallion be anything more than horny, a bit frustrated when he cant get it in and more likely to get kicked to hell by the mare than him do anything evil to her.

usually the mare is teased over the partition by a gelding to make sure she is fully receptive before the stallion is brought in. it ensures that everyone is on the same page and the natural course of events can occur.

amongst my horse breeding friends i would say that it is the character and gentle nature of their stallion that makes him good breeding stock, a violent animal with a foul temper isnt something people want to breed from

i have often seen mares being approached on the forest by stallions, dick swinging away, clearly in the mood, but she wasnt, a buck, ears back and off she went and the stallion accepted she wasnt ready.  leave animals to their own devices and theyll do what theyve always done for years upon millenium of years.  fact is a stallion isnt going to force himself onto a mare that isnt ready because the risk to him is too great.

insemination over here in the UK isnt as prevalent perhaps as in the states.  here insemination is used as a convenient option to boxing the mare to the stud, weeks of expensive livery costs and the risk of no foal at the end of it.  for the most part though, people do tend to still stick to the more traditional methods of covering, so far as im aware anyway.




lally2 -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 5:23:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompeii

This is not news since it's a few years old but when I ran into it, I wondered what defines "cruelty to animals" when bestiality is involved.
http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/5034/WA/US/

I'm not into bestiality but I'm interested in understanding all aspects of kinky sex and wonder openly ... does sex with an animal who by nature can't "give consent"(e.g., blowjob of a horse or fucking a female sheep or ... whatever) constitute abuse of that animal?



getting back on track a bit..., i have just read the link, i thought it was a vid.  the man was killed because, basically the horse, which would have a very large cock, proved too big and too powerful for the man involved.  hence the perforated colon.

so is this cruelty to the horse, dunno, entirely depends on how it was rigged up and done, but the authorities didnt seem to think so - but if a man whose cock is considerably larger than a dogs entered a dog presumably the same injury, bruising, pain etc., could occur.  in that situation that is cruelty through causing pain and suffering.

morally and ethically it is wrong in my view.  but from a purely physical side, considering the vid and switching things around so that its the man entering a smaller animal i would say that clearly the potential for cruelty, suffering and pain goes without question.

infact, in a way, that excerpt demonstrates this perfectly.




RCdc -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 5:43:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

Look up birds in particular, those that pair for life... like parrots, certain waterfowls, etc.
Animals are also notorious for imprinting on others when born.

the.dark.

“ imprinting on others”

Are you referring to the development of the id as applied to a sexual imprint? And when you say 'others' (this is bestiality thread), you mean others of the same species?

With that aside, yes, 9 out of 10 bird species are monogamous. Other than birds, monogamy is very rare in the animal world and less than 5 % of mammals are monogamous and take lifelong partners. I can see how the “if it feels good do it” instincts can apply to monogamy verses hedonism . . . and I can see how that could extend to inter-species sex for pleasure. I just wanted to be clear on your point and if this was what you meant?


I mentioned that in response to lally RS - when she spoke about species sticking to species when it comes to sex.  I was explaining that the only reason for that was procreation and that when it comes to sex it doesn't come to that and was giving examples on how animals do not stick to species for anything else, and that includes things like sex or companionship or even imprinting on something when they are born.

the.dark.




RCdc -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 5:51:15 AM)

No ones trying to justify these sexual acts lally, but it is important to realise that having sex with something that isn't the same species is a basic animal instinct and not just a human perversion.

Some people (yeah me included) are trying to explain that species do not necessarily stick to species for sex, as you mentioned, that's all.

the.dark.




lally2 -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 6:08:24 AM)

i would argue though, that most animals are programmed to have sex when the female of their specie is receptive and not really at any other time with a few exceptions.

a tom cat will laze around all day, get a whiff of a receptive female and go find her.  stallions can be in with a field of mares and only become sexually aroused when one comes into season.  a bitch on heat will bring dogs in from all over the place that were otherwise just scratching fleas and licking their balls in the shade of a tree.  birds make a big song and dance about it all through spring and early summer.  most animals are programmed to come into season during the bountiful months and less so over winter.  libido waxes and wanes.





RCdc -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 6:24:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

i would argue though, that most animals are programmed to have sex when the female of their specie is receptive and not really at any other time with a few exceptions.

a tom cat will laze around all day, get a whiff of a receptive female and go find her.  stallions can be in with a field of mares and only become sexually aroused when one comes into season.  a bitch on heat will bring dogs in from all over the place that were otherwise just scratching fleas and licking their balls in the shade of a tree.  birds make a big song and dance about it all through spring and early summer.  most animals are programmed to come into season during the bountiful months and less so over winter.  libido waxes and wanes.




And yet animals do rape.  Chimps, seals, dolphins and many more commit this act.
Homosexuality is rampant in penguins(for one) and other animals including waterfowl, monkeys and other social species.  Penguins will even use a 'rock' as a surrogate egg just to be a 'family'. Female penguins even prostitute themselves - giving sexual favours to single males in return for pebbles for their nests.  Male monkeys will give fruit to see a females butt.  These are all scientifically documented.
Goats and monkeys specifically do oral for pleasure.(God I watch far too many natural history programmes[8|])
Dogs hump mostly for the sexual act, not for dominance.  There are far more labour saving ways to mark their dominance - humping they do for fun!
OrangUtans have tried to have sex with humans.

The act of sex isn't just for procreation - in fact the two are totally seperate.

the.dark.




GraciousLady -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 6:27:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
i personally dont believe that animals should be kept in sheds and artificially inseminated.  i believe our livestock should be allowed to roam and graze, live in herds and produce babies the normal way -


Standardbreds and quarterhorses can be artificially inseminated. Thoroughbreds cannot legally. But doing it naturally means the mares have a large rate of being wounded or killed. Stallions will happily rape mares too young to survive.

Is this your idea of a good and natural way? Because in my world it's safer for the mares to be in a chute, protected by a fence so the stallion can mount her without killing her.

But then, I like horses and I know just how deadly stallions can be.



I honestly have no knowledge or have heard of any instances of a stallon killing a mare in the way you say here. I have seen them make scratches and even superficial cuts in their back with their hoves when they cover the mare. But this mad rape you speak of is something I doubt.




LadyEllen -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 6:49:15 AM)

There are two questions here
1)      is bestiality wrong? Which itself has a number of dimensions
2)      does bestiality constitute cruelty to animals?

The notion that bestiality is wrong because the animal cannot give consent is something of a red herring in deriving an answer to the question of whether bestiality is wrong or constitutes cruelty.

It allows the possibility that if the animal gives consent then bestiality should not be wrong or constitute cruelty – and this then invites us to decide whether the animal consented or not, which we can only judge according to its behaviour; if the animal reacts according to its fight or flight instinct or otherwise, during the act or following, shows distress, then we might decide that it did not give consent, whilst if it does not so react then we might decide that it did. One might comment that this is a little late in proceedings to acquire such knowledge.

The matter of consent does not give any insight into whether bestiality is wrong or cruel, just as it gives no insight into whether killing an animal, for food or otherwise, is wrong or cruel – livestock enter the slaughterhouse on their own legs after all and by such an approach might be said to consent to slaughter and by whatever means.

Animals kept as pets or livestock are property. The law as regards property is that a man may deal with and dispose of his property as he sees fit, such that this does not adversely affect others. It is not for the law to govern what he may do with his goods. From this position it is clear that bestiality should not be wrong legally and cannot constitute cruelty, however the law has evolved from regarding animals as property alike with other types of property, recognising that animals are a type of property distinct from land or goods in that they, to variable degree according to the type of animal, are capable of experiencing a range of sensations, apprehensions, emotions and reactions as well as being affected physically as to their condition in response to their treatment and environment.

All well and good, but this is hardly enough to remove a man’s right to deal with his property as he will, whether his treatment is good, bad or indifferent, occasioning suffering or not. The missing component, related to the sentient and living nature of animals, is that which would seek to limit the right of the owner of this particular type of property to deal with it as he will. The law being strongly influenced by the majority consensus view from time to time, the law has here evolved to reflect a view that the owner of an animal has a duty of care as to the welfare of his property, and must thereby take steps to avoid unnecessary suffering, pain and distress that might be experienced by the animal, and further (and importantly) to look to, and act on its behalf in, its best interests. Clearly the animal cannot sue to enforce such a duty of care or to seek damages for breach and so the state effectively takes this role on its behalf by criminalizing the neglect and cruel treatment of animals.

This brings us back to the question of consent whereby it might be argued by a defendant that an animal consented to an act of bestiality. We can now see two problems with such an assertion; firstly that if an animal is considered unable to sue then this is because it lacks capacity to do so alike with a human similarly handicapped and like that human lacks capacity to give assent to any sort of arrangement or agreement. Secondly that in law the defence of consent is in any case strictly defined and regulated such that it is unlikely to be available in the instance of an offence of bestiality, just as it is unavailable in the instance of many offences against a human person who, capacity permitting, might have given their consent and testify as such in defence of the accused.

Bestiality then is wrong in that it is contrary to law as evolved under the influence of majority consensus opinion of what is morally wrong. It may be argued that morality is a subjective matter and that what one man finds moral another may find immoral but regardless of this, it is the majority consensus opinion which governs our public conduct whether manifested in law or not.

This does not answer the question as to whether bestiality is cruel, (but then the law in this instance does not need to). In defining what is and is not cruel, which like morality is a matter that changes from time to time in the majority consensus opinion, we must look to the intent, but more so to the effect. An act does not cease to be offensive because its effects were unintended, and neither does it likewise cease because its intent is not realised.

Referring back to the duty of care which the law imposes on the owner of an animal, it should be difficult indeed to argue that acts of bestiality in any way fulfil a man’s obligations to look to and act in the best interests of the animal. As to suffering, pain and distress, it might be argued that an animal experiences none of these where it is apparently a willing participant in the act of bestiality or appears otherwise unaffected by it, but then such instances will rarely be discovered and come before the courts.

However it is to the unnecessary character of bestiality as it relates to the risk taken as to potentially causing suffering, pain and distress by the human that we must look and there we must find the owner guilty of cruelty by his recklessness even where the animal appears willing or unaffected and even where his intent is unclear, because he was aware of but disregarding as to the possible consequences to the animal.

Bestiality must therefore be deemed to constitute cruelty, regardless of the effects on the animal, and is deemed wrong according to law.

E




sweetboundesire -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 6:50:00 AM)

that's nothing...go to a chicken farm, you will easily see the hens the rooster prefers, they have an absolutely de-feathered rear, no tail feathers, nothing, just raw chicken ass. it's horrific. the rooster loves them the most.




GraciousLady -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 6:54:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetboundesire

i've heard it said, if the animal is enjoying himself than where is the harm? it's not my cup of tea but i'm sure for some deviants it is the icing on their wayward cake of desire .

DG, nice photo of your subs hiney[;)]


Legaly, if an animal is being tormented it is considered abuse. I think some will take that legal discription and use it to justify animal abuses of all kinds. For example, a dog can be trained to fight or engage in sexual acts with other than their species and will willingly do these things but is it really a wise or ethical use of the animal? After all, animals do fight in nature and have a drive to mate. Many animals will hump anything when they are so inspired. But, this is just an excuse to do the wrong thing. Humans find many ways to justify what they want to justify. In the end it's just a matter of drawing the line. If we say we are going to be civilized and not decend into madness we have to set standards and stay off slippery slopes such as is it ok to have sex with animals. If we don't draw lines someplace we not only open up the gates for abuse of animals but we also open the gates for abuse of minors, the mentaly infirm and even drunks.




PrimalConsonance -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 7:13:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompeii

This is not news since it's a few years old but when I ran into it, I wondered what defines "cruelty to animals" when bestiality is involved.
http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/5034/WA/US/

I'm not into bestiality but I'm interested in understanding all aspects of kinky sex and wonder openly ... does sex with an animal who by nature can't "give consent"(e.g., blowjob of a horse or fucking a female sheep or ... whatever) constitute abuse of that animal?



I would say yes...




Wolf2Bear -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 7:23:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompeii

I'm not into bestiality but I'm interested in understanding all aspects of kinky sex and wonder openly ... does sex with an animal who by nature can't "give consent"(e.g., blowjob of a horse or fucking a female sheep or ... whatever) constitute abuse of that animal?



You have to keep in mind that when we talk of "consent" that it assumes a verbal and mutual agreement. As of yet, the majority of animals are not able to communicate to humans in the same language; thus to apply the concept of consent is to assume a concept based on nothing but presumption on our part.




lally2 -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 7:41:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompeii

I'm not into bestiality but I'm interested in understanding all aspects of kinky sex and wonder openly ... does sex with an animal who by nature can't "give consent"(e.g., blowjob of a horse or fucking a female sheep or ... whatever) constitute abuse of that animal?



You have to keep in mind that when we talk of "consent" that it assumes a verbal and mutual agreement. As of yet, the majority of animals are not able to communicate to humans in the same language; thus to apply the concept of consent is to assume a concept based on nothing but presumption on our part.



and its the presumption that the dog/dolphin/ape (and all other promiscuous creatures dark has been watching - oh yes, penguins) are happy with the situation.  the presumption is the arrogant bit apart from anything else.

personally i have yet to see a dog jump on a human for a shag - im sure someone will now pipe up and say it happens to them all the time [&:].  ive had dogs all my life, theyve never ever tried to really actually fuck me (ive had my leg pumped, but who hasnt).  neither has any of my horses, cats or poultry.  i have farmers for friends and country folk all around me and theyve never said 'watch out for that bull the bugger will rape you' or 'damn that dog of mine!'.

its therefore reasonable to assume that on an average day with an average barn yard animal sex with a human is not in the forefront of their mind.




RCdc -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 8:01:08 AM)


quote:

and its the presumption that the dog/dolphin/ape (and all other promiscuous creatures dark has been watching - oh yes, penguins) are happy with the situation.


Pffft... I blame Master and his brand new BlueRay [;)].  Have you seen how different dvds look on these machines?  Natural history shows rock for the colour and definition(The Passion was also amazing on blueray).  I'm revisiting all those wonderful programmes, and the new ones. We are currently watching 'Life'.  No dogs OR penguins on that yet though[:D](well, apart from the ones being murdered by Leopard Seals[:'(]).

the.dark.




allthatjaz -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 8:21:45 AM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZXP03W8-AM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLTx-LZX3XM&feature=related
and this one is shocking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNLSV3ErDRE&feature=related

Here are a few clear cases of none consent http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRm8okHhapU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLTx-LZX3XM&feature=related








Wolf2Bear -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 8:24:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompeii

I'm not into bestiality but I'm interested in understanding all aspects of kinky sex and wonder openly ... does sex with an animal who by nature can't "give consent"(e.g., blowjob of a horse or fucking a female sheep or ... whatever) constitute abuse of that animal?



You have to keep in mind that when we talk of "consent" that it assumes a verbal and mutual agreement. As of yet, the majority of animals are not able to communicate to humans in the same language; thus to apply the concept of consent is to assume a concept based on nothing but presumption on our part.



and its the presumption that the dog/dolphin/ape (and all other promiscuous creatures dark has been watching - oh yes, penguins) are happy with the situation.  the presumption is the arrogant bit apart from anything else.

personally i have yet to see a dog jump on a human for a shag - im sure someone will now pipe up and say it happens to them all the time [&:].  ive had dogs all my life, theyve never ever tried to really actually fuck me (ive had my leg pumped, but who hasnt).  neither has any of my horses, cats or poultry.  i have farmers for friends and country folk all around me and theyve never said 'watch out for that bull the bugger will rape you' or 'damn that dog of mine!'.

its therefore reasonable to assume that on an average day with an average barn yard animal sex with a human is not in the forefront of their mind.


I too grew up in rural areas as a youngster and I can relate a story regarding an offspring of a neighbour that will contradict  this: "...they've never ever tried to really actually fuck..." and the family pet.




twistedwillow -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 8:24:30 AM)

Quick reply because I am done reading: It sickens me.
Beastiality was and is a wrong act.
To my mind it is up there with the rape =.
It shouldn't happen plain and simple.
BUT in having said that, as far as cruetly goes, I think that depends on the animal involved.
Obviously a mare who can accommodate a stallion, isn't going to feel a man, not in a physically traumatic way at least.
However if that same man does a chook ( hen for non aussies ) * man i can not believe I am even discussing something so fucked up!* he is going to pretty much twist the poor girls gut inside out THAT is cruelty!

Edited cause I think i violated TOS with my original post about the certain demographic getting raped.




lally2 -> RE: Is bestiality cruelty to animals? (4/22/2010 8:32:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

.I am pretty damn sure they are doing it because it feels good. I think you need to study up on this topic because you have taken a glimmer of correct information and used it to leapfrog to a mistaken conclusion about animal behavior. But I thank you for sharing your misunderstandings with me... now go post about something you do know what you're talking about. My street cred will be just fine, I am sure of it.

im so glad youre cred is good to go - mean time, tap in 'why do dogs hump legs' and read what wikkepedia has to say about the topic

On my planet, “in doggy body language”, they piss on subordinates to express dominance. Even the leader dog society has advised my blind friend to piss on his dog when there was a dominance problem. They didn't advise him to hump it or jack off off on the dog. .


now this is just a wild guess and one im sure youve considered - but if a dog trainer was to tell the average dog owner to hump the dog right back and show it whose boss theyd have the law enforcement round, the rspca round and Action Against Unsavoury Training Practices for Dogs at their door, never mind the kennel club and Dog Trainers Assoc.,
 
its a documented fact - and i did take a look before i posted my response.




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