RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (Full Version)

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Lashra -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 11:11:38 AM)

Perhaps this was his way of yanking her back in line, perhaps he knows her well enough to know that the jewelry around her neck is a powerful enough of a symbol that if taken away will encourage her to do what needs to be done.

Every D type has their way of leading and it will not make sense to everyone. Just because your D type does something one way does not mean that it is right for every relationship. You can't always blame the D type for when a sub starts to slip either, sometimes the D type is under so much stress that they may not notice or choose not to deal with it at the moment because they have something more pressing. If a D type is succumbing to stress should S/he be judged as a bad dominant? I do not believe so. Life is life and it gets rough sometimes and no one is immune to slipping no matter who they are or their role in their relationship.

~Lashra



Kana -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 11:13:24 AM)

Of course we all make judgments about things (except no-limit slaves-They've had their brains scooped out and all decision making and thought functions given over to their Twue Masters).
What I, and any number of others, am pointing out is that we don't have enough data to make an informed judgment.
And...grins....it's my judgment that people who leap to conclusions without evidence are idiots and are to be treated accordingly.

P.S.:  This is not a critique of the OP or the forum/post at all, but a comment re judging in general.



jbcurious -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 11:20:11 AM)

When I read the quote...the first thing I think is that she sounds young... the second thing is that the collar was taken away, not because of something in particular that she had or had not done but because her Master felt she didn't understand the significance of being collared. i think maybe he jumped the gun in collaring her in the first place and should have made sure that she did understand the significance of what it meant.

On the flip side, if she was unaware of the significance, then maybe it wasn't all that traumatic...and it all seems to have worked out in the end.

It's a bit like taking the training wheels off your kids bike...the kid wants to give it a go, but as a parent it's up to you to judge if they're truly ready.



RCdc -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 11:27:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Sunshine, people aren't stupid. Your motive for starting this thread seems to be well seen. Also, you are NOT ignorant of this subject as this was not the first time its been posted over the years. And your own words BELOW the quote its clear its a hey let's judge this guy badly thread. if you really were ignorant of the concept, you would have stopped at can anyone explain this to me or you could have asked the girl to have her Mster post his view. Your own words below the quote makes your assessment of the MAN in the quote personal. Yeah, you didn't want it to be a judgment thread -- we all see that!

You could have easily posted this thread in a question rather than using a quote from someone on the boards and continued on to speak as it seems about the MAN in the quote.

angel


The judger judging judgment. How ironic.


Maybe so lushy -  however at least angel had the courtesy of coming to the poster to do it, not use another persons quotes and place a question which judges the couple in question.  It's not about judging really, it's about empathy and kindness.

Sunshine - blergh - I just ummed and ahhhed about posting this but hey ho - I just found this thread really quite sad.  If you want to know why something happens, you ask the people concerned - isn't that what we(generic) say to posters when they ask 'what would masters/subs blahblahblah do'?  It just turns into people discussing the poster (examples back there)you quoted and all the 'probablities' without knowing any of the real facts.  The first thing that jumped into my head was - wow - did she ask the poster to use her words and put her in the spotlight - while I understand it's not necessary because she posted it on the boards - it left me feeling uncomfortable.  Meh - that's just me.

I do understand that you believe that there was no harm, and that it was about the concept.  But for me, as I said, sadness with certain human traits.  Caveats of 'get over it', 'it happens', 'you posted about your reality so tough' etc is just devoid of being a responsible human being when it's not directed to the person originally.

If I disobeyed Master - I am not his - end of.  A collar is a tangible and tactile article only for some people.  I don't have a collar that represents ownership - it's just not something that proves or shows ownership in Masters world.  There is no punishment dynamic, no grey areas. If I disobeyed, I'm not his.  It's not about earning - it's about doing or not doing.

the.dark.



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 11:31:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

No comment on the OP but it just irks me that people can't understand we ALL make judgements about things. Hell, if you did not make a judgement (decision and or opinion) about something everyone would be sending money to flakes that are stuck in africa. Judging something is not bad. Judging by your own standard is not bad. It may not be on target. It may not be politically correct but shoot.. anyone who does not have an opinion on something might as well be hooked up to an IV in a coma.


quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

At no point did I say they were wrong. I said that TO ME it smacks of blame shifting.
C'mon, Sunshine-do you really think that putting the words 'to me' in front of a judgement makes it any less of a judgement?





Ok, perhaps I should have used the word condemnation instead of the word judgement, but *I* was irked by was the implication that putting the words 'to me' in front of a condemnation of an action or decision as wrong made any difference as to whether or not it *was* a condemnation.

Sunny made a judgement that a man who behaved in this way was shifting the blame, with all the irresponsibility and other negative connotations that go with that-she made a call that he was in the wrong. That's fine-that's her opinion, and her opinion is entirely her call to make. What's not fine is to then deny that putting the words 'to me' in front of this statement that the man was wrong makes it any less of a condemnation of the man as wrong, just by virtue of being her opinion.



reynardfox -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 11:45:46 AM)

There's no trust in a relationship like that, and where there's no trust, there's no relationship.



LinnaeaBorealis -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 11:49:24 AM)

One time I heard about a submissive's release from her collar for reasons that I didn't think justified such actions.  I told the story to my Owner & asked if he would release me under similar circumstances.  He said that he would, after he punished me for that behavior.  I have since asked about some other circumstances & he has told me about 1 or 2 things that if I do them, he will release me.  He can't take away the physical collar, since it's a tattoo on the back of my neck.  There would be no trial separation.  If I did certain things, he knows that I would expect to be released.  Because of that, I would never do those things.  If I wished release, I would simply ask for it.

I do understand the concept & that it can work in some others' dynamics.  I just wouldn't like to have that kind of a thing happen in my relationship.  I would feel anxious that any time that I displeased him, he could remove the collar & make me earn it back.  But maybe it would only have to happen once, yanno?

As far as whose responsibility it is to maintain & lead the relationship, I feel that His Evilness is the leader in our dynamic.  However, it is always my responsibility to follow & to do what pleases him, what he wishes for me to do.  A couple of times, there have been incidences where I have begged to be allowed to speak freely.  He has always said yes.  After he hears me out, I am always waiting for him to get defensive & for there to be further issues.  I have always been disappointed in that he has taken full responsibility for his part in the misunderstanding & has asked for my forgiveness.

I do wish that Sunny had left the quote out & simply referred to the concept in general terms.  I think that this thread would have been a lot more interesting had she done that.  I think that a lot of people have pounced on the personal aspect that the quote brought into it, rather than discussing the concept that she was trying to understand.



dreamerdreaming -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 12:27:02 PM)

{{Hugs Miss Sweet as Pi}}

Great topic, Sunny!  [:)]






SailingBum -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 2:44:50 PM)

lets make this concept easier to understand.  Let's say im married read collar.  My wife has an affair.  I toss her out  removal of collar.  At some point we reconcile collar back.   This happens all the time.  See how simple this is.  Lots of folks tend to over Anal- ize this stuff

BadOne



KnightofMists -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 4:01:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

No comment on the OP but it just irks me that people can't understand we ALL make judgements about things. Hell, if you did not make a judgement (decision and or opinion) about something everyone would be sending money to flakes that are stuck in africa. Judging something is not bad. Judging by your own standard is not bad. It may not be on target. It may not be politically correct but shoot.. anyone who does not have an opinion on something might as well be hooked up to an IV in a coma.


quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

At no point did I say they were wrong. I said that TO ME it smacks of blame shifting.
C'mon, Sunshine-do you really think that putting the words 'to me' in front of a judgement makes it any less of a judgement?





Ok, perhaps I should have used the word condemnation instead of the word judgement, but *I* was irked by was the implication that putting the words 'to me' in front of a condemnation of an action or decision as wrong made any difference as to whether or not it *was* a condemnation.

Sunny made a judgement that a man who behaved in this way was shifting the blame, with all the irresponsibility and other negative connotations that go with that-she made a call that he was in the wrong. That's fine-that's her opinion, and her opinion is entirely her call to make. What's not fine is to then deny that putting the words 'to me' in front of this statement that the man was wrong makes it any less of a condemnation of the man as wrong, just by virtue of being her opinion.




I agree with you except you are missing one critical point.....

Even though we all have judgements and some of those judgements are negative and others are postive. But... just because we have a judgement it begs to question is one open-minded enough to reconsider their judgement or are they closeminded and are only looking for validations to their judgement.

Because the OP asked these key questions...

quote:

....Am I way off base here? Can somebody explain this to me?


It causes me to consider that the OP is looking for other perspectives to consider the issue from. In fact, I have noted at least a couple places that the OP have acknowledged points of view for her to consider and even question her orginal point of view.

I guess the question to me is... are you so set on your judgement that you can't consider that you are wrong?



Now... as far as the OP... I think your particular point of view might be accurate is some cases and not in others...... but I think subfaith said it best when she said...

quote:

We know by her admission, the removal of her collar caused a change and her behaviour improved. So has he failed? Sounds to me like he achieved what he wanted, therefore I would say he was leading quite successfully, despite the 'extreme' technique he used.


seems to me that the quote does indeed reflect that the results of the given action appears to be successfully done for the benefit of the relationship. That result in of itself would seem to question the judgement that the OP put forward. Though, I must say that I am not going to jump on the bandwagon and say the action itself was indeed successful. But, I wouldn't be entirely negative about it either. There is so much that one doesn't know about these sitiuations from the outside.... but if it works for them... who are we to condemn them for doing it that way?




VaguelyCurious -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 4:06:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I agree with you except you are missing one critical point.....

Even though we all have judgements and some of those judgements are negative and others are postive. But... just because we have a judgement it begs to question is one open-minded enough to reconsider their judgement or are they closeminded and are only looking for validations to their judgement.

Because the OP asked these key questions...

quote:

....Am I way off base here? Can somebody explain this to me?

I wasn't talking about whether the OP was willing to reconsider her negative judgement, or questioning her open-mindedness towards any arguments that might be put forward by someone else.

I was objecting to the way she said that putting the words 'to me' in front of it made her less judgemental-I was referencing a later post rather than the original.



sunshinemiss -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 4:45:09 PM)

Hi Linnea -

I think you are right.

quote:

I do wish that Sunny had left the quote out & simply referred to the concept in general terms. I think that this thread would have been a lot more interesting had she done that. I think that a lot of people have pounced on the personal aspect that the quote brought into it, rather than discussing the concept that she was trying to understand.


Hello dark,

I've always respected you and your way of viewing things. Haven't always agreed, but you do always give me something to think about. More than once, I've clarified my thinking on things based on your very cogent point of view. The part highlighted below hit me right between the eyes. When someone hits another person with a car, while it may have been a real and honest accident, without any negative intent or misbehavior on the part of the hitter, just an honest to goodness accident, the other person is still in the hospital.

quote:

Maybe so lushy - however at least angel had the courtesy of coming to the poster to do it, not use another persons quotes and place a question which judges the couple in question. It's not about judging really, it's about empathy and kindness.


so...

To Hallie and her gentleman,
Regarding using your quote. It would have been a wiser choice to have left it out and to have just brought up the concept... and it would have avoided the negative repurcussions wafting your way. My apologies.

Best,
sunshine



Missokyst -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 5:13:53 PM)

To me, asparagus are the most vile things on earth. That is my evaluation based on the imput I recieved from tastebuds, tummy, and .. err.. other sources. I have condemmed them... and yet, people will still eat them. Everyone judges. Not everyone will agree. If someone tells me I am wrong about asparagus I will buck up and grant they have a right to eat them.. lol I just don't have to participate.
The OP may have posted a condemnation based on her interpretation of the profile.
We all interpret things daily, and judge them, hopefully with the ability to make our own decisions IF the need is present. Personally, I find no need to go further into finding out why said profile posted what she did. For me, that is a random profile of no matter because I don't know them at all. But as a statement, it is no different than posting a editorial in a column. If you put it out there people might read it and comment on what was said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

No comment on the OP but it just irks me that people can't understand we ALL make judgements about things. Hell, if you did not make a judgement (decision and or opinion) about something everyone would be sending money to flakes that are stuck in africa. Judging something is not bad. Judging by your own standard is not bad. It may not be on target. It may not be politically correct but shoot.. anyone who does not have an opinion on something might as well be hooked up to an IV in a coma.


quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

At no point did I say they were wrong. I said that TO ME it smacks of blame shifting.
C'mon, Sunshine-do you really think that putting the words 'to me' in front of a judgement makes it any less of a judgement?





Ok, perhaps I should have used the word condemnation instead of the word judgement, but *I* was irked by was the implication that putting the words 'to me' in front of a condemnation of an action or decision as wrong made any difference as to whether or not it *was* a condemnation.

Sunny made a judgement that a man who behaved in this way was shifting the blame, with all the irresponsibility and other negative connotations that go with that-she made a call that he was in the wrong. That's fine-that's her opinion, and her opinion is entirely her call to make. What's not fine is to then deny that putting the words 'to me' in front of this statement that the man was wrong makes it any less of a condemnation of the man as wrong, just by virtue of being her opinion.





VaguelyCurious -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 5:29:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

To me, asparagus are the most vile things on earth. That is my evaluation based on the imput I recieved from tastebuds, tummy, and .. err.. other sources. I have condemmed them... and yet, people will still eat them. Everyone judges. Not everyone will agree. If someone tells me I am wrong about asparagus I will buck up and grant they have a right to eat them.. lol I just don't have to participate.
The OP may have posted a condemnation based on her interpretation of the profile.
We all interpret things daily, and judge them, hopefully with the ability to make our own decisions IF the need is present. Personally, I find no need to go further into finding out why said profile posted what she did. For me, that is a random profile of no matter because I don't know them at all. But as a statement, it is no different than posting a editorial in a column. If you put it out there people might read it and comment on what was said.
Two things:

1) I'm sorry, but I don't see 'I dislike asparagus' as parallel to 'It seems like someone who has decided to shift the blame', especially as the latter was directed at a specific poster's partner. (I know the OP has since apologised for making this personal, but she hadn't at the time I first posted).

2) I *wasn't* criticising the OP for the condemnation itself. I agree that she has total rights to her opinions, just like in an editorial column. 

But what she *then* did was to say:

quote:

At no point did I say they were wrong. I said that TO ME it smacks of blame shifting.
as though putting the words 'to me' in front of the accusation/condemnation/judgement/whatever stopped it from being an accusation/condemnation/judgement/whatever. *That* is what I objected to-not the condemnation itself, particularly (although I don't think much of it, I absolutely recognise her right to wave it around-I would just rather she had not denied what she was doing).

I hope that's clarified what I was trying to say. If not, then I'm going to bow out and give up, because it's 1.30am here and I'm tired.



sunshinemiss -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 5:40:37 PM)

VC -
The difference that you are not seeing is that I was (and am) open to reassessing my position - that is actually what I was asking assistance with. Yes, *to me* does take the sting away. Why? Because it is coupled with a wanting to understand a different viewpoint. It was couched in a realization that my viewpoint is *not* the only one. What other people do wouldn't work for me. I have an opinion about something, and I ask for other opinions. I rather dislike it when people ask for opinions but don't give their own. I don't ask them to change the way they post, however. I just go with it.

As a personal example, I would rather you not put your black and white thinking onto my way of interacting. In fact, there are a number of things that you do that irritate me, and you have been on "hide" for several days now. Missokyst quoted you, and I decided to see what else you had to say. My informing you that I don't like the way you do things doesn't really change anything does it? You are still going to post the way you do. So I do what sane people do - I change *ME* . I put you on hide... I don't attempt to change others.

good luck,
sunshine



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 5:56:41 PM)

I'm going to reply to this briefly because it's quarter to two and I'm exhausted.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

VC -
The difference that you are not seeing is that I was (and am) open to reassessing my position - that is actually what I was asking assistance with.
I do see that-in fact I think I said so to Knight of Mists somewhere above. But being willing to reasses an agressive position doesn't negate having the position in the first place.

quote:

Yes, *to me* does take the sting away. Why? Because it is coupled with a wanting to understand a different viewpoint. It was couched in a realization that my viewpoint is *not* the only one. What other people do wouldn't work for me. I have an opinion about something, and I ask for other opinions. I rather dislike it when people ask for opinions but don't give their own. I don't ask them to change the way they post, however. I just go with it.
But your opinion was, essentially, 'I believe that this man has behaved in a wrong manner, for reasons x,y,z'. (I know the paraphrasing is clumsy and simplistic, and I'm sorry for that, but I'm too tired to be more eloquent). To you, he was shifting the blame. The 'to you' doesn't remove the 'he was wrong' from the sentence.

quote:

As a personal example, I would rather you not put your black and white thinking onto my way of interacting. In fact, there are a number of things that you do that irritate me, and you have been on "hide" for several days now. Missokyst quoted you, and I decided to see what else you had to say. My informing you that I don't like the way you do things doesn't really change anything does it? You are still going to post the way you do. So I do what sane people do - I change *ME* . I put you on hide... I don't attempt to change others.
I didn't attempt to change what you do. I wrote a single line questioning the logic of something you wrote, and Missokyst picked up on it and questioned me in turn, so I replied to her.

I do find it odd to be called a black and white thinker by you, though, given that within a minute of reading your original post I could think of several scenarios off the top of my head where the temporary removal of a collar could occur without any assignation/shifting of blame. whereas you seemed to need to start a thread for others to point them out to you.

edited because I mistyped a [quote thingy.



Level -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 6:08:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hello Levelicious,
I didn't take it as an attack. I often go through the struggle of hope and reality. You got me there! I think this may be another of those examples. I dunno.

I'm watching Braveheart right now. Robert the Bruce has just said, "I want to believe... I'll never be on the wrong side again." Hope and reality... Can't hope be reality?

Meh, sometimes I think too dang much for my own good!

Best,
sunshine


Hope can be a part of reality; it can help guide us, inspire us, and inform us, but we can't let it cut the legs out from underneath our life. I'm still learning how to do this [:D]



sunshinemiss -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 6:13:26 PM)

More than once I've been accused of not seeing the forest for the trees. And perhaps that is true. I am a Grammar gal. In this instance I specifically chose the term "seems like" for my OP. You see, "seems like" is somewhat different than "is". Yes, you will call it splitting hairs and you will imply aggression where there is none. But your opinion doesn't change the intent of my posting.

When people of good conscience have a question, generally it's wise to actually ask the question. The manner in which I asked it was honest, upfront and curious. Yes, I did have my own way of thinking about this concept. And yes, I did in fact, ask for some examples of some good reasons to do this, reasons that were contrary to how *I* was seeing things. Two men that I respect well gave examples of when it is a good choice. A man I don't know privately emailed me about his making a mistake in doing this very thing (and by the way concurred with my POV). Two other people that I respect told me to look inside for my own prejudice about using the quote and my expectations. Both of which I did/am doing.

I happily admit when I don't know something, when I want some help in rethinking things. Thus this thread.

good luck,
sunshine



sunshinemiss -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 6:22:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hello Levelicious,
Hope and reality... Can't hope be reality?

sunshine


Hope can be a part of reality; it can help guide us, inspire us, and inform us, but we can't let it cut the legs out from underneath our life. I'm still learning how to do this [:D]


So you're saying I want Ozzie and Harriet but gotta live with having Ozzie and Sharon? [:D]



VaguelyCurious -> RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means (4/23/2010 6:34:19 PM)

Getting even briefer, and after this I am going to bed, so if you respond I won't see it until tomorrow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

In this instance I specifically chose the term "seems like" for my OP. You see, "seems like" is somewhat different than "is". Yes, you will call it splitting hairs and you will imply aggression where there is none. But your opinion doesn't change the intent of my posting.
Given that you've just criticised me for 'putting my black and white thinking on you', I would appreciate it if you did not tell me what I will and will not do.

Of course I can see the difference between 'seems like' and 'is'. At no point have I thought you have stated your opinions as fact, or that you were inflexible once you had started at a certain position.

What bothered me, and what I commented on, was the way you seemed to think that putting the words 'to me' in front of a judgement made it less judgemental. That's *all*.

The dig I made about black and white thinking in my last post was uncalled for, and I apologise for that. Normally I don't post when I'm this tired, because I get snippy like that.

A side note, though, re aggression: without dissecting your OP, the second half of the thread title is '...whatever that means'. That doesn't seem like it could come off as aggressive or dismissive to you?



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