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RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 6:44:29 PM

sunshinemiss

Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
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Hello VC,

quote:

Given that you've just criticised me for 'putting my black and white thinking on you', I would appreciate it if you did not tell me what I will and will not do.

Fair enough.

quote:

The dig I made about black and white thinking in my last post was uncalled for, and I apologise for that. Normally I don't post when I'm this tired, because I get snippy like that.

I think we've all done that. No worries.

quote:

'...whatever that means'. That doesn't seem like it could come off as aggressive or dismissive to you?

No, it doesn't. Not in my head. It is curious in my head. If others read it as aggressive or dismissive, that came from them, not from me.

I was at a workshop once, and the leader said this to a participant, "Very friendly question. So what?" Same with my "whatever that means."

Sleep well,
sunshine

_____________________________

Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

Post #: 81

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 6:45:51 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

lol, well, no, I'm just saying you gotta live.

Let hope live, too, let it flourish, just try to not let it make you look back one day, and see only regret.

I wonder how Harriet would have responded if her Ozzie had bitten off a bird's head?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 82

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 6:58:08 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
The difference that you are not seeing is that I was (and am) open to reassessing my position - that is actually what I was asking assistance with. Yes, *to me* does take the sting away. Why? Because it is coupled with a wanting to understand a different viewpoint.

Which is exactly how I read her original post and subsequent posts on this thread.

Since I stand on this thread as one of those masters who has, in fact, done exactly as Sunshine queried about, I have to say I find it odd that I myself wasn't annoyed by the original question or any of the subsequent replies. I read someone asking for a different viewpoint, I offered one up, it appeared it was both accepted and appreciated.

I'm confused what the problem is here.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 83

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 7:08:09 PM

lusciouslips19

Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
The difference that you are not seeing is that I was (and am) open to reassessing my position - that is actually what I was asking assistance with. Yes, *to me* does take the sting away. Why? Because it is coupled with a wanting to understand a different viewpoint.

Which is exactly how I read her original post and subsequent posts on this thread.

Since I stand on this thread as one of those masters who has, in fact, done exactly as Sunshine queried about, I have to say I find it odd that I myself wasn't annoyed by the original question or any of the subsequent replies. I read someone asking for a different viewpoint, I offered one up, it appeared it was both accepted and appreciated.

I'm confused what the problem is here.

Me too.However, I think there are certain posters who may not "love" other posters and the posters may actually be annoyed with each other. Some even project onto other posters their issues and unhappinesses. Seems like a lot of horse poo the way that some are always trying to find fault, judge and question specific posters motives.

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 84

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 7:15:09 PM

JstAnotherSub

Posts: 6174
Status: offline

wow.....it seems to me that the folks here who are "judging" where the op's head and heart were when posting this are doing exactly what they are trying to accuse her of doing.

i can not see any way that quoting something posted on here in order to try to better understand something, or just to get a discussion started, could cause such a firestorm of folks assuming they know what she was thinking when she posted (the op that is)

as for the topic, that manner of "wake up" call would not work for me i dont think. i would never say never, but TO ME (hahahaha) it would feel like abandonment.

glad the folks who were quoted are happy and this issue is resolved tho....

_____________________________

yep

(in reply to lusciouslips19)

Post #: 85

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 7:19:19 PM

VaguelyCurious

Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
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FR: Aaaargh, it's past three and I'm still awake.

To make this absolutely clear: I wrote a *one sentence comment* querying whether emphasising the 'to me' in the sentence 'to me x,y,z is wrong' made any real impact on how it sounded. This was in a longer post, where I also addressed the actual question.

This one sentence was picked up by Missokyst. We discussed it. I was mildly irked, to echo her word, and nothing more- there is no massive problem on my end, and I certainly wasn't 'questioning Sunshine's motives' at all, Lushy-she wanted alternative views, so she stated her opinion and asked a question-pretty straightforward.

I was questioning a single, specific thing that she said, and someone else picked me up on it. That's all.

eta: also, Lushy, I'd query *anyone* about the 'to me' issue, in person or online, best friend or [I really want to put 'arch-nemesis' here but sadly real life is not like Harry Potter and I have no arch-nemeses so I'll just go with] not. I wasn't at all looking to find fault with Sunshine.

< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 4/23/2010 7:29:37 PM >

_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.

(in reply to lusciouslips19)

Post #: 86

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 7:30:59 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

Honestly, I think the sooner all of you ladies send me enticing pics of yourselves, the better off we'll all be. That, is the only solution to this conundrum.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

Post #: 87

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 8:01:04 PM

LinnaeaBorealis

Posts: 8595
Joined: 10/5/2008
From: Insanity & beyond
Status: offline

I agree with Level. Does this mean you'll share the photos with me?? Hmmmmm?????

_____________________________

Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
~~L. Cohen

Just one of the yahoo's

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 88

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 8:07:38 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

To make this absolutely clear: I wrote a *one sentence comment* querying whether emphasising the 'to me' in the sentence 'to me x,y,z is wrong' made any real impact on how it sounded. This was in a longer post, where I also addressed the actual question.

well.. too me.. you are making a judgement that is well beyond reason.

Of course.... I could say it differently like

You are making a judgement that is well beyond reason! and nobody is going to discount that judgement because it is THE judgement... not just my judgement. Frankly... I see the "too me" as minimizing and when one actually takes the whole context of the comments of the OP... one just might actually be openminded enough to see beyond the specific judgement and note the openness to learn and maybe even change an opinion. Of course... can't say that I noted that with your posts in this thread.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

Post #: 89

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 8:10:12 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

I'm confused what the problem is here.

well to me your just fucked up and that is why you are confused about what is the problem is. I might be wrong though... I have been know to be... well that was once but... still it's there!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 90

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 8:14:53 PM

lusciouslips19

Posts: 9792
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

FR: Aaaargh, it's past three and I'm still awake.

To make this absolutely clear: I wrote a *one sentence comment* querying whether emphasising the 'to me' in the sentence 'to me x,y,z is wrong' made any real impact on how it sounded. This was in a longer post, where I also addressed the actual question.

This one sentence was picked up by Missokyst. We discussed it. I was mildly irked, to echo her word, and nothing more- there is no massive problem on my end, and I certainly wasn't 'questioning Sunshine's motives' at all, Lushy-she wanted alternative views, so she stated her opinion and asked a question-pretty straightforward.

I was questioning a single, specific thing that she said, and someone else picked me up on it. That's all.

eta: also, Lushy, I'd query *anyone* about the 'to me' issue, in person or online, best friend or [I really want to put 'arch-nemesis' here but sadly real life is not like Harry Potter and I have no arch-nemeses so I'll just go with] not. I wasn't at all looking to find fault with Sunshine.

Well, believe me, I wasn't referrng only to you. You were actually the politest picker.

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

Post #: 91

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 8:19:00 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

Not being allowed to wear his collar is vastly different than being released from his collar. I have a silver chain with a cat charm that I wear as a symbol of his ownership. However, it is a privilege to wear it and at any time he can make the decision to not allow me to wear it. If I were to do something that caused him to make the decision that I was not allowed to wear the chain then it would be well within his right as owner to do so. Since it is a privilege, I wear it at his pleasure. Wearing that chain is not an expectation that I am allowed to have. In fact, if I start taking that privilege (or any other) for granted I can see him taking it away from me so that I learn that it is a privilege and not a right I have.

Minimizing expectations is something that is highly desired in his house as his slave.

Knight's Kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 92

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 8:24:40 PM

kyraofMists

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Joined: 7/29/2005
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There is an old post by MrThorns that has stuck with me for the last four years. It is a post that really drove home the concept of collar and privilege as it applies to my life. I have tried to link it below:

Removing a collar as punishment

< Message edited by kyraofMists -- 4/23/2010 8:25:07 PM >

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 93

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 8:27:41 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
well to me your just fucked up and that is why you are confused about what is the problem is. I might be wrong though... I have been know to be... well that was once but... still it's there!

*sighs* Carol's visiting her folks right now in Chicago which means not only am I fucked up but I'm not getting fucked... *sighs*. I'm surely doing something wrong in this whole "master" thing.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 94

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 8:30:03 PM

Cherylmazana

Posts: 1152
Joined: 10/4/2007
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I once know a Gorean who controlled his slave by when she irritated him he removed his slave’s collar and told her she was free until she earned it again. As a Gorean free woman that pissed me off big time as I do not equate being Gorean and free as being a failed slave.

In the end really it comes down to the individuals involved, though personally I find removing the collar regularly for punishment a device that can easily lose its effectiveness and also come to change how the slave views the collar.

I think there are better ways to discipline.

Cheryl

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 95

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 8:41:56 PM

Andalusite

Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline

Sunshine, my Master hasn't done a formal collaring with me, although I am owned by him. When we were dating, we had very detailed discussions of his expectations of a slave compared to a submissive. If he felt I was no longer meeting his expectations of a slave, but was still in compliance with his requirements of a submissive, I think it would be reasonable to use that relationship designation until I actually *was* what he considered to be a slave again. Not so much earning it back, but "call it like it is." If he felt the need to do that, I would feel very apologetic and would be trying my best to get back to the point where he could truthfully call me his slave again, since I *want* to meet his needs and desires and be shaped by him. To me, there's a big difference between putting the M/s dynamic on hold (or withholding the collar or use of the label), and breaking up with your partner over the same issue. I don't see the scenario you mention as putting the blame on the submissive or slave, but as clarifying what the dynamic actually is, and getting it back on track.

VC, the "to me" part does make a difference, IMHO. There are a lot of things that people bring up on the boards that I react to with, "Wow, I'm so glad my Master doesn't think of it in that way! I'd feel just awful in that situation." Back when I was looking, I frequently felt a bit discouraged because of some of the things that seemed very common here, although I didn't run into them with the actual people I met and dated. I worried that they might actually feel that way, and I just hadn't asked the right questions yet to realise it! I recognise that other people can be *very* content in that relationship though, and not have those negative emotions associated with it at all. How would you suggest expressing that kind of thing without coming across as critical of the people who *do* approach their relationship in a way that *I* would find problematic if it were expected of *me*?

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 4/23/2010 8:53:53 PM >

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 96

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 8:45:37 PM

kyraofMists

Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
well to me your just fucked up and that is why you are confused about what is the problem is. I might be wrong though... I have been know to be... well that was once but... still it's there!

*sighs* Carol's visiting her folks right now in Chicago which means not only am I fucked up but I'm not getting fucked... *sighs*. I'm surely doing something wrong in this whole "master" thing.

Posting for KnightofMists because he said he is too lazy to go to his computer:

I feel for you. Alandra is gone for the weekend and I am only going to get one blowjob instead of two. Life is tough sometimes and it has nothing to do with this "master" thingy.

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to leadership527)

Post #: 97

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/23/2010 8:48:41 PM

CarrieO

Posts: 2432
Joined: 1/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

If she was slipping in her behavior, isn't it his responsibility to get her back on track?

That's a good question and it has me asking my own questions.

If the submissive partner in a power exchange dynamic gives control to the dominant partner, would it be the responsibility of the D to foster a certain type of behavior and provide the appropriate correction when that behavior slipped? Is that a suitable expectation of a relationship that involved an exchange of power beyond the bedroom?

In my opinion...yes, the responsibility does fall to the D when it comes to maintaining the morale of the s within the relationship expectations. Not to say the s would have no role to play in the responsibility but it does make me question what percentage...50/50, 40/60, 10/90....all on a case by case thing maybe.

If the removal of a collar is used as correction, over time would this type of discipline lose it's ability to elicit a positive response along with de-valuing the significance of the collar itself? Of course, it would all come down to what value is placed on the actual collar, what it symbolizes and how deep the power exchange dynamic is.

*edited because it's late and my thoughts aren't as clear as I'd like.

< Message edited by CarrieO -- 4/23/2010 8:51:54 PM >

_____________________________

"No matter what happens in the kitchen, never apologize"~Julia Child~

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 98

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/24/2010 5:17:19 AM

CaringandReal

Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

At no point did I say they were wrong. I said that TO ME it smacks of blame shifting.

C'mon, Sunshine-do you really think that putting the words 'to me' in front of a judgement makes it any less of a judgement?

When does a personal opinion beome a judgement? To use the tired old chiche, "When I say it, it's just ah honest personal opionion. When YOU say it, it a sly sneaky inuendo, a veiled judgement." Glass houses, stones, and the fact that those three words still have meaning mean that nothing essential's changed after thusands of years.

Sigh.

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)

Post #: 99

RE: Losing the privilege... whatever that means - 4/24/2010 5:36:28 AM

CaringandReal

Posts: 1397
Joined: 2/15/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hi everybody,

quote:

Master actually took my collar away for a long time because He didnt think i was worthy of wearing it. He didnt think i understood the significance or what it represented. i am happy to say that i did improve and was able to earn back the priviledge of wearing it once again.

So I saw this quote ... and it made me think... How does one do something that makes them have to "improve" and "earn back the privilege" of wearing a collar?

best,
sunshine

Well, someone might do this (quite frankly this case is so rare that it barely is worth talking about, but you asked) if he were an extraordinarily perceptive master, I mean really gifted into seeing the insides of people, particularly his slave, and he had percieved that, based upon her unique psychology and experiences, and based upon the circumstances surrounding this specific moment, that she would become a better, happier slave if he were to do this to her, that the effect upon everything that was crucial to him in a slave (maybe things like trust, obedience, general happiness, as well as care in what she did) would be highly benificial. It is, however, extremely hard to know anybody well enough to be able to predict them at such an exact level. No matter how much we master someone they still, in essence, remain a mystery to us. In some ways, that in itself is sweet. So I would say that this occurance may be on a par with winning a gigantic lottery. It happens, but it's so very rare it's not likely to ever happen to you or me.

The fact that the person quoted seems happy about the outcome at the time she posted is a neutral fact: it doesn't provide any information about whether this act actually worked or not. It's a frozen snapshot of one brief moment of her life. If I were you, I'd be curious to see how this played out over time. Maybe watch her posts over a period of months or years, if she's here that long.

_____________________________

"A friend who bleeds is better" --placebo

"How seldom we recognize the sound when the bolt of our fate slides home." --thomas harris

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 100

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