RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (Full Version)

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domiguy -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 6:41:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

I asked on page seven...

"BTW... there were several hundred Black, Creole and Native American slave owners. The descendants of their slaves number in tens of thousands... are they going to get this guilt money too???

How about the descendants of the slaves in Caribbean, in Central and South America, in Northern Africa,? When you dole it all out to each individual descendent and current victims of the African slave trade will the four bucks in your pocket make you feel better?
"

I left out African Slaves sold into the Middle East... so include them too.



There are never going to be any reparations.

When you bash Obama why don't you ever mention all of the fucked up things Bush did during his presidency as well? Isn't he guilty of utilizing horrible judgment as well?

No...Someone like you only likes to show when someone else is complicit in an activity if it fits your political and closed minded agenda.


What a pud!






FatDomDaddy -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 7:17:43 PM)

Oh so only United States slaves should get guilt money.... well then let's just stick to the Black, Creole and Indian slave holders...




thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 7:21:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Oh so only United States slaves should get guilt money.... well then let's just stick to the Black, Creole and Indian slave holders...



You were aware that this thread is about paying reparations to decendents of slaves in the U.S.?
I am sorry you missed my answer to that question but I said if they were purchased for profit then they would be entitled to reparations.
If they were purchased to be released then their buyers could hardly be held liable but of course the slaves would be entitled for previous servitude.
Why is this so difficult for you to figgure out? Well except for the part where you have to admit your own culpability.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 7:30:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

I asked on page seven...

"BTW... there were several hundred Black, Creole and Native American slave owners. The descendants of their slaves number in tens of thousands... are they going to get this guilt money too???

How about the descendants of the slaves in Caribbean, in Central and South America, in Northern Africa,? When you dole it all out to each individual descendent and current victims of the African slave trade will the four bucks in your pocket make you feel better?
"

I left out African Slaves sold into the Middle East... so include them too.



There are never going to be any reparations.

When you bash Obama why don't you ever mention all of the fucked up things Bush did during his presidency as well? Isn't he guilty of utilizing horrible judgment as well?

No...Someone like you only likes to show when someone else is complicit in an activity if it fits your political and closed minded agenda.


What a pud!






You and your assumptions!

First off George W. Bush is no longer President and has zero power over the US Government.

Second, I posted numerous criticisms of Bush when he was President, mostly on spending, immigration and failing to properly fight the war in Iran, especially his failure to attack and secure Fallujah.








FatDomDaddy -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 7:37:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Oh so only United States slaves should get guilt money.... well then let's just stick to the Black, Creole and Indian slave holders...



You were aware that this thread is about paying reparations to decendents of slaves in the U.S.?
I am sorry you missed my answer to that question but I said if they were purchased for profit then they would be entitled to reparations.
If they were purchased to be released then their buyers could hardly be held liable but of course the slaves would be entitled for previous servitude.
Why is this so difficult for you to figgure out? Well except for the part where you have to admit your own culpability.



So slaves in Indian nations, zip... gottcha

And only US slaves... I am guessing currently living here right... if their forefathers went back to Libera, no soup for them! Now what about Southern US Slave holders who also held slaves elsewhere in the Americas???




thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 7:46:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

Oh so only United States slaves should get guilt money.... well then let's just stick to the Black, Creole and Indian slave holders...



You were aware that this thread is about paying reparations to decendents of slaves in the U.S.?
I am sorry you missed my answer to that question but I said if they were purchased for profit then they would be entitled to reparations.
If they were purchased to be released then their buyers could hardly be held liable but of course the slaves would be entitled for previous servitude.
Why is this so difficult for you to figgure out? Well except for the part where you have to admit your own culpability.



So slaves in Indian nations, zip... gottcha

You do not read very well ...how did you get that from what I posted?

And only US slaves... I am guessing currently living here right... if their forefathers went back to Libera, no soup for them!

You are bieng obtuse I did not say that either.

Now what about Southern US Slave holders who also held slaves elsewhere in the Americas???
Are you saying that there were slave holders in the U.S. who owned slaves in other countries and what would be their status under a reparations bill?
Since there is no such bill how would any one know?






WyldHrt -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 8:03:40 PM)

quote:

Well except for the part where you have to admit your own culpability.

Culpability? For what? Unless FDD has been keeping people enslaved against their will, I don't see how the word culpable applies here.

Also, I have a question. Would the descendant of a union between a slave and slaveowner have to pay hirself reparations? I'm not poking fun here, just pointing out that the logistics of  sending a check to the descendants of slaves would be a frikkin nightmare for many reasons.




slvemike4u -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 8:17:23 PM)

The logistics really aren't worth discussing WyldHeart...reparations are a non-starter and responsible people realise this.Argumentative folks can and will make what are completely logical arguments laying out the rightness of reparations in "theory"...and they can be compelling arguments....but bottom line it is unworkable and any attempt to actually do such a thing would be incredibly incendiary and might actually lead to civil unrest the likes this country has never seen.
We might as well discuss giving the land back to Native Americans.




Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 8:19:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

part of the reason more black people don't post here is the utter blindness many posters have about these problems, including the three directly above me.


What the fuck are you talking about?



What the fuck are you talking about?

The CM crowd is hardly progressive.

Personally, I'm just used to it because I grew up in a hardly progressive part of the country. Sometimes I even think [poster's named excluded so I don't get another one of those moderator emails] is kind of funny, you know, for a bigot.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 8:20:30 PM)

OK then... in a mythical guilt money payout, what about slaves held by Indians, in Indian Nations?

And... exactly where is the money coming from? Mythically of course.

And there is still that pesky problems of the decendants of Black and Creole Slave/Plantation owners




FatDomDaddy -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 8:21:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u


We might as well discuss giving the land back to Native Americans.


That's been done before.




Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 8:21:48 PM)

Yes, but... are those really your lips?!?!?!




Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 8:28:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

OK then... in a mythical guilt money payout, what about slaves held by Indians, in Indian Nations?

And... exactly where is the money coming from? Mythically of course.

And there is still that pesky problems of the decendants of Black and Creole Slave/Plantation owners


This rather stupid argument was already made back on, like, page 6.

Keep up! [:D]




dovie -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/28/2010 9:51:57 PM)

Oh my goodness at this thread!

In a way I'm quite thankful as the conversations have given me a glimpse into the minds of several of my fellow CM comrades. [:(]  *sigh

" Why are you asking the inmates for the keys?" "Well. They looked like they were Doctors." 

dovie




eyesopened -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/29/2010 5:29:30 AM)

~Fast Reply~
Once again I look at the discussion and see that no one wants to DO anything.  DomYngBlk seems to think that nothing will ever change and therefore is no reason to try anything.  We are stuck with a racially divided country and there is no remedy for it.

But there IS a remedy. The remedy is to make a personal choice not to let the horrors of the past impede the future.  What would happen if each person made the decision to be better, do better, than their ancestors?  What would happen if each person shifted their focus just enough to see the commonalities as human beings and the basics that promote self-worth and positive action?  Instead of saying "it will never happen so why bother?"  Why not say "I can make this happen for me." 

The elephant is alway eaten one bite at a time.




DomYngBlk -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/29/2010 8:20:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella




First off, that 'genetically predisposed' tripe is bullshit. It's not a genetic thing, it's a community thing - kids who grow up in urban black communities are exposed to certain cultural influences that glorify drug dealing, violence, and gang activity, and even criminality in general. It's no different from the fact that if you go to a backwater town in Arkansas you'll find a higher proportion of gun toting homophobes - that's not a "white thing" it's a cultural thing.

In other words, it's not an either-or proposition: either blacks are genetically more likely to be criminal or the fact that so many of them are in jail is due to racism. The fact that there are so many black people in jail is because there are so many black people from inner cities who grew up in an area that glorified criminal activity. The question is, what to do about it? How do you scourge a community of a self destructive state of mind?

Obviously I can't answer that question. But, you know, as someone who grew up in a town where the kids in HS would get minimum wage shit jobs at the mall or fast food restaurants, I don't have much sympathy for the guy in jail who chose to make more money selling drugs. Well, I do, in the sense that I think the war on drugs is retarded, and I don't think selling drugs should be a crime at all, but I don't have sympathy for the argument "I'm in jail because I'm black" when all the facts of the matter instead point to the fact that he's in jail because he broke the law.

 
Elisabella, there are more black people jail because there are more policeman in our neighborhood than yours. Since the main job of a Policeman is to arrest someone and find a crime what do you think happens? They arrest people and find crimes. I dare say if you had this  many policeman strolling/riding your neighborhood that they would have more arrests there too. But the bigger question is why are there more policeman in East Cleveland than West Cleveland? Or more in Compton and less in Glendale? Is is skin color? Is it that we do drugs more than others? Do we sell more drugs that whites? Are we just "bad"? Or is it just easier to arrest a black man than a white man.
 
I just ask you this. Put yourself in a Black Man from the inner cities shoes. You haven't had the benefit of a suburb education. Your schools are patently underfunded cause property values are dropping in your area not rising. Unemployment is 30% or more in the area. There are no companies within walking distance or public transport distance. If he can find his way to the company that has jobs he might be able to do he is in line with others that have more skills and connections to land that job. So what is he left with. He still needs money to put a roof over his head. Hopefully enough dollars to feed his kids and keep a wife if possible. What do you suggest? What good answer would you have for this man? ......I know what I would do. I'd get some drugs and hang out on the corner and wait for the white businessman or mom or student to come riding by wanting to buy what I am selling....
 
 




thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/29/2010 8:53:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

Well except for the part where you have to admit your own culpability.

Culpability? For what? Unless FDD has been keeping people enslaved against their will, I don't see how the word culpable applies here.

I am sorry you missed the post that explained that the U.S. was fuded for its first 75 years by the taxes on the product of slave labor. The infrastructure we benifit from today is based on that previous infrastructure so we today benifit from the labor of those slaves.

Also, I have a question. Would the descendant of a union between a slave and slaveowner have to pay hirself reparations? I'm not poking fun here, just pointing out that the logistics of  sending a check to the descendants of slaves would be a frikkin nightmare for many reasons.

Since no law has been written to address this problem as a whole it is unlikely that one has been written for this subset.
My best guess would be some sort of govt.sponsored program to bring the decendents of those slaves into the mainsteam of our society.







thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/29/2010 9:00:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

OK then... in a mythical guilt money payout, what about slaves held by Indians, in Indian Nations?

And... exactly where is the money coming from? Mythically of course.

And there is still that pesky problems of the decendants of Black and Creole Slave/Plantation owners



You seem pretty intent on picking some fly shit out of the pepper.
The ability to target specific slave holders for reperations is probably not very good.
Don't you think that if a reperations bill were to pass it would not be in the form of cash payments but more likely in the form of housing,educational and business subsidies?
You seem to be focusing on the minutia of the problem in order to show that the concept is flawed without actually presenting a problem.
How about if those entitled to reparations simply get them and not focus on exactly who owned them. To what purpose would making different classifications of owners serve?




WyldHrt -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/29/2010 12:21:54 PM)

quote:

I am sorry you missed the post that explained that the U.S. was fuded for its first 75 years by the taxes on the product of slave labor. The infrastructure we benifit from today is based on that previous infrastructure so we today benifit from the labor of those slaves.

I didn't miss anything. That said, you used the word culpability:
culpable - blameworthy: deserving blame or censure as being wrong or evil or injurious; "blameworthy if not criminal behavior"; "censurable misconduct ...
Please explain to me how someone can be culpable for events that occurred over 100 years before they were even born.




Elisabella -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/29/2010 4:32:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
 
Elisabella, there are more black people jail because there are more policeman in our neighborhood than yours. Since the main job of a Policeman is to arrest someone and find a crime what do you think happens? They arrest people and find crimes. I dare say if you had this  many policeman strolling/riding your neighborhood that they would have more arrests there too. But the bigger question is why are there more policeman in East Cleveland than West Cleveland? Or more in Compton and less in Glendale? Is is skin color? Is it that we do drugs more than others? Do we sell more drugs that whites? Are we just "bad"? Or is it just easier to arrest a black man than a white man.
 



I would imagine it has something to do with the rate of violent crime in certain neighborhoods. Unless you're going to argue that the mere presence of police causes violent crime in an otherwise peaceful neighborhood, this is just a rhetorical distraction.

As far as the drugs question goes - people often compare a black inner city drug dealer with a white college kid who sells pot to his friends and say it's unfair one gets punished more than another, if it were just a random black person I'd agree, but street gangs these days are national crime syndicates so really the only thing comparable in 'suburbia' are the low level mafia dregs.

quote:


I just ask you this. Put yourself in a Black Man from the inner cities shoes. You haven't had the benefit of a suburb education. Your schools are patently underfunded cause property values are dropping in your area not rising. Unemployment is 30% or more in the area. There are no companies within walking distance or public transport distance. If he can find his way to the company that has jobs he might be able to do he is in line with others that have more skills and connections to land that job. So what is he left with. He still needs money to put a roof over his head. Hopefully enough dollars to feed his kids and keep a wife if possible. What do you suggest? What good answer would you have for this man? ......I know what I would do. I'd get some drugs and hang out on the corner and wait for the white businessman or mom or student to come riding by wanting to buy what I am selling....
 
 


Well I can't answer the theoretical for myself without facing a "you don't REALLY know what its like" response to anything I'd say, but your question is flawed.

Most drug dealers in those neighborhoods become involved as young teenagers or even younger as lookouts and if you have to sell drugs to feed your kids, you shouldn't have had kids. Also, from what little firsthand and secondhand knowledge I have about the inside of a courtroom, if a first offender were to tell a judge that he had been out of work for a year and was desperate to feed his children and asked the courts for help in finding a job, he'd likely get probation or suspended sentence and referred to something that would help him find work. The 'gangster' mentality of most low level drug dealers have them instead sitting stone faced raging against the system instead of trying to work it.

But anyway, I'm wondering if you're saying a person from an inner city neighborhood has *no choice* but to become involved with a crime syndicate, because if that were really true I'd imagine it would justify a lot of preemptive arrests. Of course, if it is a choice, if being born in the ghetto doesn't mean you're automatically predestined to make bad choices, then the choice you know you'd do is nothing more than the choice you'd do, and personally I'd say that however bad that choice may or may not be, you're making a far worse choice when you choose to tell yourself that it's not really your fault you made it.





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