RE: African complicity in the slave trade....

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eyesopened -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 5:38:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk The information would be the same as given to everyone at that school. Would think there would be a typical bell curve scores resulting from it. However, take that district versus kids that maybe go to Choate School in the Northeast. No contest. All the Choate kids scored higher than students from your offsprings schools. Why? It is in what is taught. Amount of money spent per student, the teacher/student ration. Does that matter? Well yes, since most if not all of Choate Graduates end up in an Ivy League school which then leads to a Prominent position in Gov't or Business. Then it's not an issue of race, it's an issue of what the people of the United States thinks is important. It would seem from recent years that waging war and bailing out corporations who don't have the business sense to stay afloat is more important than education. We need to make sure that every school provides the same education for children everywhere. No exceptions. I'm not in favor of extending unemployement forever. I am in favor of having each citizen given the same opportunities and same tools for self-reliance. We educate our children equally and then we have true equality.

tazzygirl -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 5:44:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk So browsing the majority of comments...one would assume that there is nothing wrong with holding slaves as long as the people selling them to you are complicit in the sale. Did I about get that right? A few questions for you.... Do you believe blacks were the only ones kept in slavery for 400 years? Do you forsee any amount of money making things right for any group who were held in slavery? In all the tests you speak of, do you believe the only ones disadvantaged was black people? or could it possibly have been based upon income? No one said slavery was right. Morally it was totally wrong. So, in your best assessment, a check to every decendent of a slave will make things right? Can black people be so easily bought? Tribes cannot.

DomYngBlk -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 5:47:02 AM)
I don't disagree with you. It isn't 100% an issue of race. However, I'd still argue that it partly was. Whatever. We aren't going to solve this ourselves. I think your statement about having each citizen given the same opportunities and tools for self reliance is the most telling. I agree with you but we are so far from that day that it is laughable to even discuss it.

tazzygirl -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 5:47:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk Ok, lets tick these off...Great Society programs helped who exactly? White Americans in large measure. Civil Rights Act? Oh great thanks we can officially VOTE since we were already citizens...Brown vs. Board of Ed....great we get to go to school where we want. What repair was given in these things? I can't say much.....Then Affirmative Action? There were famous court cases that brought down the effectiveness and Reagan pretty much stopped any movement on that front. From what I read you are saying that we should just shut up and accept our lot. We've been offered all the possible avenues to improve ourselves and that if we haven't done it it is our fault? Thats incredible in itself. And as far as living well? The unemployment rate in the African American community is well over 30% is that equality of opportunity? And while you were going to school where you wanted, native americans were still being scorned and ridicules, rejected right and left, legally. Native american unemployment is between 15 and 25% at this time. No one is bringing up these facts. Shall i simply go away and stop reminding you that others were equally as enslaved? That blacks were NOT the only ones?

DomYngBlk -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 5:57:09 AM)
A few questions for you.... Do you believe blacks were the only ones kept in slavery for 400 years? Do you forsee any amount of money making things right for any group who were held in slavery? In all the tests you speak of, do you believe the only ones disadvantaged was black people? or could it possibly have been based upon income? No one said slavery was right. Morally it was totally wrong. So, in your best assessment, a check to every decendent of a slave will make things right? Can black people be so easily bought? Tribes cannot. - Tazzygirl 1. Of course blacks weren't the only peoples held in slavery. Hence my comments regarding the tribes as well as the current situations of the hispanic community. 2. No, reparations or any other name that we give it isn't about money. It is about finally making the needed changes in our structure to give all equal access that give people the ability to be self reliant. Education, Health Care, Housing. No Federal Program that was brought out to help these situations has ever been fully funded. Even today Head Start is at miniscule levels of just a generation ago. Most school systems are funded out of property taxes. Housing values are lowest....where.....hence the deplorable state of education in inner cities. 3. Yes, test scores are based on income but it is also based on culture. Native, Hispanc and African American children are less likely to pick up a book by Shakespeare or Homer than a Caucasian child. That is just reality. However, most questions are based on European Literature without any reference to any other culture. 4. Lastly, money isn't what this is about. Its about equality of opportunity.

tazzygirl -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 6:01:40 AM)
On this we can agree. Reparations in the form of a check wont change a thing, and imagine how watered down the amount would be based upon population size and family trees. Reparation should take place in the form of services... Health and Education mainly. But, take a lesson from the tribes. Anger wont solve these issues.

vincentML -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 6:14:54 AM)
quote: From what I read you are saying that we should just shut up and accept our lot. We've been offered all the possible avenues to improve ourselves and that if we haven't done it it is our fault? Thats incredible in itself. And as far as living well? The unemployment rate in the African American community is well over 30% is that equality of opportunity? No, you misread me completely. There is socio-economic disparity not racial disparity. The socio-economic disparity lies upon a foundation of devaluation of education by the students and their community which in turn is engendered by poverty. It is a vicious cycle but it is a disease that afflicts all races. The opportunities are available to those who get the education. The education is available to those who want it. Time to stop blaming the "system" for that. Additionally, you asked for gestures and when I listed those that have already been made you tick them off disparagingly. So, I ask again other than a nebulous "change the system" wtf do you want? I think nothing will satisfy you except you can continue to bitch and moan. What specifically do you think would make a difference and that is practical and doable?

thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 8:10:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShoreBound149 quote: ORIGINAL: ShoreBound149 And there are a great many rich, white privileged people that pump gobs of money into poor under privileged minority communities. quote: ORIGINAL:Thomsonx Really????how many???? http://philanthropy.com/article/The-Philanthropy-50-Americans/64019/ Here's the top 50 individual donors of 2009. That's just 50 out of countless people with money who donate. We are able to count all of the people in this country but you have a pool that is countless of those who donate..your math skills are awesome. quote: They are mostly white, some self made, mostly generational wealth. Look at the numbers fucktard. "Fucktard"??? Oh my but your mother did a fine job of expanding your vocabulary. But... In a discussion among adults name calling is not equal to actually answering a question quote: Do they do it for free or do they get something back like tax breaks? What under privileged person gives a fuck why someone is providing them charity? Why do you? What does it fucking matter? You are an asshole. I may be an asshole but you are ignorant...let me see if I can help disabuse you of a bit of your ignorance. It is not about who cares it is the fact the donor has not given anything but has conned you into believing that they have done something nice. Lets suppose you have a ton of money and your tax liaibility is x...you ,instead of paying your taxes you put that money into a trust and then use the interest of that trust to do charitable work...The taxman gets fucked out of his money...you get to keep your money. You get to employ all your cronies in your "charitable trust" which eats up the majority of the funds generated by the trust and at the same time you get to tell everyone you gave tons to charity. That is the real world. According to your polyanna concept, all the money these "fat cats" have given should have been enough to give everyone in our country a comfortable life...but as you can planly see that is not the case. quote: The tax breaks they are getting are an example of our government inspiring those with to help those without. As I have pointed out "those without" are still without.

thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 8:14:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kiwisub12 quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray I'm not sure what your point is here? That white people don't suck? I'm all for judging people on their individual merits, so sure. Like I said I'm not sure what you're driving at here, but just in case it matters, whites also began slavery in America. Sooooo yeah. Please enlighten me. Just for interest sake - I'm pretty sure that the Native Americans (i hate that term) raided and kept slaves on the American continent way before the white man ever turned up on its shores. So do they get money too? Is that the thrust of this thread?

thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 8:17:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I have asked you two questions. I will ask again Silence 1) Where are the reparation talks for native americans? Since we are talking about African slaves I fail to see the relevance unless it is just to misdirect the discussion 2) Where will the money come from and who will be entitled? The did not seem to have much trouble finding the bread for the bankers.

thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 8:28:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: From what I read you are saying that we should just shut up and accept our lot. We've been offered all the possible avenues to improve ourselves and that if we haven't done it it is our fault? Thats incredible in itself. And as far as living well? The unemployment rate in the African American community is well over 30% is that equality of opportunity? No, you misread me completely. There is socio-economic disparity not racial disparity. You do not find it curious that that socio-economic disparity is deliniated by "racial" lines? The socio-economic disparity lies upon a foundation of devaluation of education by the students and their community which in turn is engendered by poverty. It is a vicious cycle but it is a disease that afflicts all races. The opportunities are available to those who get the education. Some opportunities are available to some of those who get the education. The education is available to those who want it. Quality education is not always available to those who want it Time to stop blaming the "system" for that. Additionally, you asked for gestures and when I listed those that have already been made you tick them off disparagingly. And accurately So, I ask again other than a nebulous "change the system" wtf do you want? I think nothing will satisfy you except you can continue to bitch and moan. I do not see his posts as bitching and moaning so much as a statement of reality...of course if pointing out that bigotry is alive and well is bitching and moaning in your reality then I can understand your your misconceptions. What specifically do you think would make a difference and that is practical and doable?

DomYngBlk -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 9:05:06 AM)
No, you misread me completely. There is socio-economic disparity not racial disparity. The socio-economic disparity lies upon a foundation of devaluation of education by the students and their community which in turn is engendered by poverty. It is a vicious cycle but it is a disease that afflicts all races. The opportunities are available to those who get the education. The education is available to those who want it. Time to stop blaming the "system" for that. Additionally, you asked for gestures and when I listed those that have already been made you tick them off disparagingly. So, I ask again other than a nebulous "change the system" wtf do you want? I think nothing will satisfy you except you can continue to bitch and moan. What specifically do you think would make a difference and that is practical and doable? - VincentML I challenge you to show me how the same education is available for all. I would laugh if it wasn't so sad. From the moment a child reaches preschool to University there is no equality in opportunity. The deck is stacked against those children from lesser means or Children of color. I'd love if we'd revisit the time that this country took up the challenge of equality and fully fund the programs that were started. Fully fund Head Start. Stop the practice of using only local property taxes as a way to fund schools. Fund from a general pool. Monies split per student. Change testing to reflect different cultures rather than the total emphasis on the European culture. Create a medical system that doesn't punish the poor. Emphasize prevention not reaction. Those are just a few small things. I am sure they are much too "radical" for you and of course you'd rather say all I do is complain rather than see an actual problem. Don't worry you can stick your head back in the holes mr. ostrich. All is well....

vincentML -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 9:38:30 AM)
thompson, DYB made this comment: quote: Reparations or something at least symbolic would help erase the disadvantages of being a Man of Color in this country for 400 years. When I provided a list of outreach that was more than symbolic, he found reason to complain about each. That tells me he doesn't really know what he wants. Then he complains about cultural bias in college entrance exams without acknowledging (a) that efforts have been made to correct that problem, and (b) that college admissions long ago established point systems that minimised the impact of the tests and gave advantages to to Minority applicants. Then he complains about public high school curricula and class ratios with a comparison to Choate which is a private co-educational, college prep, boarding schools. As if we weren't all disadvantaged when compared to Choate. Startling news that. Private money has advantages. Sheesh. Then there is the complaint about equal distribution of property taxes. In Florida at least Educational dollars are distributed statewide from the Capitol according to student population per County. Then he begins to walk it back with this comment: quote: It isn't 100% an issue of race. However, I'd still argue that it partly was. Now to your comments: quote: You do not find it curious that that socio-economic disparity is deliniated by "racial" lines? I think poor whites are overlooked in this debate. Children of all races fall below the poverty line. quote: Some opportunities are available to some of those who get the education. Your statement is just too vague to warrant an answer, T. Please give me specifics not broad generalizations. How is this not true regardless of skin color? quote: Quality education is not always available to those who want it That may be true but your comment carries the implication that it is a skin color problem. Quality learning is available to those communities that want it however. Education is not given. It is taken by those who value it and are motivated to obtain it. It is not a commodity to be purchased at the corner store. I believe the solution lies in community activism to mentor children and parents to reach out and grab the education that is available. Education has many venues in addition to schools. There are books, libraries, television and internet. quote: I do not see his posts as bitching and moaning so much as a statement of reality...of course if pointing out that bigotry is alive and well is bitching and moaning in your reality then I can understand your your misconceptions. Bigotry is a given. It is in the hearts of some. But I dispute that it is institutionalized any longer. I see too many successful Afro-Americans. Their success gives the fallacy to what you and DYB are arguing. Finally, I will repeat my unanswered question: "What specifically do you think would make a difference and that is practical and doable?" If you have no answer to that you are just bitching and moaning.

LadyEllen -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 9:49:49 AM)
Legally there is no basis whatever to proceed on in respect of a claim for damages. However let us consider on moral grounds. Presuming one believes that financial reparations are in order - what sum is adequate, per person living today, assuming one can establish the necessary ancestry and the basis is purely without regard to the sorry state of national finances? $1000-00? $10,000-00? $100,000-00? $1,000,000-00? Answer carefully - such decisions may make precedent or influence it. E

vincentML -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 9:58:35 AM)
quote: I challenge you to show me how the same education is available for all. I would laugh if it wasn't so sad. From the moment a child reaches preschool to University there is no equality in opportunity. The deck is stacked against those children from lesser means or Children of color. Children from poor families are disadvantaged before they come to school because their parents do not have the pre-school tools to start their education. Even Head Start programs had an effect only up to about third grade. Learning begins in the home. That is where the foundation is laid. Furthermore, college admissions is based only partly on test scores. You know very well that colleges use a wider system to evaluate students and that they employ diversity programs sanctioned by SCOTUS. quote: I'd love if we'd revisit the time that this country took up the challenge of equality and fully fund the programs that were started. Fully fund Head Start. Stop the practice of using only local property taxes as a way to fund schools. Fund from a general pool. Monies split per student. This is the case in Florida. I don't know that it has lead to an improvement. quote: Change testing to reflect different cultures rather than the total emphasis on the European culture. This is being done. However, there is no reason why students of color cannot excel in math, science and history. There is nothing european about them. Your argument lowers expectations and gives students an out. The question to be answered is why do so many poor children and children of color exit high school reading at an eighth grade level. I suggest it is a matter of motivation, valuation, and community reinforcement that is lacking. quote: Create a medical system that doesn't punish the poor. Emphasize prevention not reaction. I agree. But it is not just the poor who are punished. quote: Those are just a few small things. I am sure they are much too "radical" for you and of course you'd rather say all I do is complain rather than see an actual problem. Don't worry you can stick your head back in the holes mr. ostrich. All is well.... You do not know my radical/conservative inclinations and your "mr ostrich" comment is way off the mark. A gratutitous insult by someone who cannot debate the merit of the issues. One additional question... Why is it that Asian children are so successful? They are children of color and not of European culture. Again I will suggest it is a question of community values and home values. The change has to begin in the communities... and in some it is.

vincentML -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 10:01:54 AM)
You have to first show that people alive today were injured by what transpired in the past. As to those who were slaves, there is no monetary value that can be placed on thier lives lost imo.

LadyEllen -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 10:04:50 AM)
Sorry V - I misposted it - it was a general question, not to you specifically. The problem you indicate is agreed - first line of my post - impossible to do anything very much for that and other reasons. You also anticipate the trap I set - clever! E

thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 10:08:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML thompson, DYB made this comment: quote: Reparations or something at least symbolic would help erase the disadvantages of being a Man of Color in this country for 400 years. When I provided a list of outreach that was more than symbolic, he found reason to complain about each. That tells me he doesn't really know what he wants. Your perception and others perception of the functional or symbolic results of those outreach programs would varry considerably don't you think? Then he complains about cultural bias in college entrance exams without acknowledging (a) that efforts have been made to correct that problem, and (b) that college admissions long ago established point systems that minimised the impact of the tests and gave advantages to to Minority applicants. If that were true then there would not be any misproportional representation in the institutions of higher learning. Then he complains about public high school curricula and class ratios with a comparison to Choate which is a private co-educational, college prep, boarding schools. As if we weren't all disadvantaged when compared to Choate. Startling news that. Private money has advantages. Sheesh. So you and he agree that money and priviledge tilts the playing field in favor of the rich. Then there is the complaint about equal distribution of property taxes. In Florida at least Educational dollars are distributed statewide from the Capitol according to student population per County. In most jusridictions in this country property taxes pay for schools so it would appear that Florida is an exception Then he begins to walk it back with this comment: quote: It isn't 100% an issue of race. However, I'd still argue that it partly was. Now to your comments: quote: You do not find it curious that that socio-economic disparity is deliniated by "racial" lines? I think poor whites are overlooked in this debate. Children of all races fall below the poverty line. Whites make up about 50% of this country and blacks make up about 13% but the number of poverty cases per ethinc group is disporportionate. So your point that there are poor of all ethenicities is a little shallow. quote: Some opportunities are available to some of those who get the education. Your statement is just too vague to warrant an answer, T. Please give me specifics not broad generalizations. How is this not true regardless of skin color? It was a general response to a general statement by yourself. quote: Quality education is not always available to those who want it That may be true but your comment carries the implication that it is a skin color problem. Again if you look you will see that the socio-economic divide occures on the same ethnic lines Quality learning is available to those communities that want it however. Education is not given. It is taken by those who value it and are motivated to obtain it. It is not a commodity to be purchased at the corner store. I believe the solution lies in community activism to mentor children and parents to reach out and grab the education that is available. Education has many venues in addition to schools. There are books, libraries, television and internet. quote: I do not see his posts as bitching and moaning so much as a statement of reality...of course if pointing out that bigotry is alive and well is bitching and moaning in your reality then I can understand your your misconceptions. Bigotry is a given. It is in the hearts of some. But I dispute that it is institutionalized any longer. I see too many successful Afro-Americans. Their success gives the fallacy to what you and DYB are arguing. Finally, I will repeat my unanswered question: "What specifically do you think would make a difference and that is practical and doable?" If you have no answer to that you are just bitching and moaning. I neglected to answer this question because it was not directed at me but now that you have asked me I will give my opiniot. 1. Those who are active bigots should stop. 2. Those who are pc bigots should stop. 3. Those who don't know what they are talking about should get a clue. 4. Treat everyone like they were really your kin.[/b

Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 10:20:31 AM)
Going to have to agree with thompsonx here. If you really want to find the heart of American exploitation today, follow big money and its obscene charity maneuvers. It's all a front that devalues actual charity that ordinary people perform. Also, it's fairly established that poor to middle-income people consistently give a far greater proportion of their income to charity, despite having less free time with which to engage in these activities. I've never taken a course on investigative journalism, but I imagine this is the first thing any decent teacher would tell you-- dress up as a rich people, sneak into a big charity gala-bullshit-brigade, carry a wire, liquor them up, and find out the mother fucking truth.

Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/26/2010 10:26:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I have asked you two questions. I will ask again Silence 1) Where are the reparation talks for native americans? Since we are talking about African slaves I fail to see the relevance unless it is just to misdirect the discussion 2) Where will the money come from and who will be entitled? They did not seem to have much trouble finding the bread for the bankers. Exactly. This is my whole point. My argument was never reparations per se, but new forms of policy that would encompass entitlement for all disadvantaged groups. There's something dangerously pathological in a community that sees nothing wrong in giving charity not to the poor but to the rich.

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