RE: They really do exist...

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: They really do exist...

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: They really do exist...

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: They really do exist... - 4/28/2010 7:57:58 AM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

I'm still getting a grip on just what they would pick up. Something in nature could concievably produce square waves, like an arc. The earliest code transitters did actually employ an arc. To have something natural produce a pattern of arcs could happen by electrically charged bodies rotating, or possibly orbiting in an other than round orbit. However these things would be of long duration and not suddenly appear and disappear like the morse transmitter's output. So yes, they could concievably figure out that it is not caused by celestial bodies.

Later of course came radio. In the beginning there were very few transmitters and that would be when they could get a clue, later, with a multitude of transmitters on the planet it would be much more difficult. However there is another problem. These lower frequencies tend to "skip", which means they are being reflected by the ionosphere, so very little if any of it made it out.

Even if they have sensitive enough equipment to pick this up their best chance to figure out how to decode anything when there was less of it going on. In the case of TV broadcasts, like when there were pretty much two TV stations in the world if I am not mistaken, KDKA in PA and the BBC in England. That's if enough of it got through the ionosphere of course.

They are more likely to recieve the bands used to transmit to satellites geosynchronous orbit, because they do pass through the ionoshpere. That came much later and makes our "sphere" much smaller. What's more most uplink signals are highly directional, which theoretically would make the sattelite an effective shield.

So it is entirely possible that they are totally unaware of our existence and all the chatter we have generated is akin to the proverbial tree falling in the forest. Is there a sound ?

However there are facilities on Earth that do purposely do send signals out into space, for the sole purpose of having other life forms detect it. Those involved in the project have reasoned that mathematics is universal, so they are modulating the signal with simple progreesions of numbers. However IIRC this didn't even start until the mid 1960s. That should be a better indicatiion of the radius of our "sphere". Just rough figures here, if it started in 1965, it is now 2010, so it boils down to only 45 light years.

I would love to meet ETs, illegality notwithstanding. If they can get here they have alot better chance of breaking the language barrier, a good thing because I would suck at it. I can barely remember the swear words I've learned in foreign languages LOL.

Also there are problems building a reciever with enough sensitivity to pick up terrestial broadcasts. If their technology is similar to our's, noise is affected by temperature so we're most likely talking liquid cooling in the front end. What we are picking up on radio telescopes is generated by celestial bodies, and the power level is enormous at the source.

Of course now I have just assumed some things, terracentrically. We don't know if they even have any silicon on their planet with which to produce transistors. This also assumes that they ever even conceived building a radio. And even that assumes that our technology IS the technology and nothing else will work.

T

(in reply to DomKen)

Profile

Post #: 41

RE: They really do exist... - 4/28/2010 8:37:30 AM

Dubbelganger

Posts: 200
Joined: 4/9/2010
Status: offline

Dr. Alan C. Tribble, in his book "A Tribble's Guide to Space" ( http://press.princeton.edu/titles/6915.html ), explains why interstellar travel is as impossible as anything can be.

A Tribble's Guide To Space

< Message edited by Dubbelganger -- 4/28/2010 8:42:57 AM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Profile

Post #: 42

RE: They really do exist... - 4/28/2010 8:53:18 AM

MstrPBK

Posts: 573
Joined: 1/2/2008
Status: offline

Termyn8or: "It is by the law of logic, highly probable, almost for sure that there is life out there. But there is simply too much assumption going on as to it's form and traits. If we ever really get out there we have no idea what we will find. Neither would they. "

Termyn8or, you have certainly thought through your thoughts on this, and I fully respect you for your comments. With all due respect to you, and everyone else on this topic, need to remember is that Mr Steven Hawkin's is saying is that IF extraterrestrial life deliberately decides to travel to Earth their end response to humans on Earth would be violent. The center of this topic ought to be: How are we perceived as a Race. Are we violent or peaceful? To the other end of the same discussion: How would we deal with an Alien Race hell bent on destroying OUR race; and possibly our planet? While these are hypothetical questions now - we as a planetary society may have to face them as part of our destiny as a race.

Finally on a lighter note of passing humor. Termyn8or your quoted words above made me think of a line: "No ... he is not a Wookie but he is Volcan, and Volcan's are always right ... I wouldn't mess with him. ... "

MstrPBK
St. Paul, MN USA

(in reply to DomKen)

Profile

Post #: 43

RE: They really do exist... - 4/28/2010 12:24:03 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Because no matter what your intelligence level you are looking at it from a human perspective when the subject is not humans.

I'll resort to fiction to illustrate. Star Trek, Gene Rodenberry. In the beginning I had to stipulate whatever it was because everyone spoke English. Later they handled that problem with the universal translator. Then, for some reason Star Fleet HQ as well as the academy were on Earth. Now we weren't the first to have warp technology. As the story goes, the Vulcans discovered us because of Cochran who "invented" the technology. And at least 80% of the captains of all the ships in Star Fleet were human.

So in essence, all of this is thinking could be termed terracentric. Now in contrast there is Herbert. The Dune series barely mentions Earth, IIRC is was a myth yet undiscovered. However many of the centient beings were humanoid. Why ?

The humanoid form is quite fragile even compared to most life forms on Earth. Yet "we" still think that way despite the evidence to the contrary. And that is still assuming that other species' somehow resemble some species on this planet. That is an assumption.

Considering things on this planet "we" still have trouble seeing things objectively, and that amidst literally a sea of evidence. To take an objective approach about the possible form an extraterrtrial life form might take is beyond most people's comprehension. At present we can measure certain things about other planets, in some cases their mass, or at least volume. Mass can be determined with a telescope with high enough resolution by back figuring it, provided it has natural satellites*. But we have no idea of the atmosphere's makeup. We can't say for sure that the life is even carbon based and dependent upon oxygen. We don't know how much water is there. We don't know anything about any ecosystem other than our own, and we don't even know everything about that. The physiology of any life form that manages to survive is based on their environment and ability to adapt. Who knows to what they had to adapt ?

Nobody. We assume.

*that can be determined by the distance and orbital velocity of those satellites, their mass is irrelevant unless it is quite massive. But all that really gets us is the relative G force when it comes to their environment(s). This can indicate whether or not it can hold an atmoshpere but does not tell what is in that atmosphere. That can only be partially estimated, mainly by surface temperature. Not very exact to say the least.

T

My point was that whoever is out there humanoid or other wise would recognize morris code as not being random noise.
That was the only point I was making.
I am fully aware of terracentric bias and that had nothing to do with my point.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Profile

Post #: 44

RE: They really do exist... - 4/28/2010 9:08:27 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

FR

OK folks, realize this, I couldn't really name the recipient of given paragraphs. I tried to respond to everyone, but when I tried to separate it, it sort of bled together. (on other websites use the word "meld") But I tried to cover as much as possible, and sometimes when I post it is before work time is actually money, but I spend it how I choose. Plus I don't like it there anyway, who does ? No matter what, while I can multitask it is pretty much impossible in print. If it "sounded" as if I were refuting anyone, believe me that is not my intent. We only have so many extant facts and the rest is supposition. For all we know War Of The Worlds could happen tomorrow.

So where does that leave us on this topic ? Well I had a burning desire of knowledge of the universe in which we live that predates the creation of Capt. James T. Kirk. It was always my favorite subject and I persued it ruthlessly. Anytime I got into any kind of bookstore, especially a used bookstore, or a library, guess what I sought. Pure knowledge. And I still seek it, because other than specifics, "they" don't really know that much more than I. Sure there are particulars. But say if I worked at an observatory would I be declaring a new find that was discovered a couple of years ago ? I don't think I would be worth my salt, even though I actually DO understand why they want to discover everything. For example odd behaviors in some planets have been explained by the discovery of another planet.

Why is this relevant ? Well why do I know all this ? For me it was not a persuit of fortune or fame. In fact I was working before I even knew it, more on that some other time, and it wasn't in this field. But I had not gone for absolutely for any,,,,,,,, even respect. I simplly wanted to know. It was pure unfuckingadulterated curiousity. (there I go inventing words again) [oops I almost misspelled it] {actually if I misspel the word "it", shoot me}

Now if these aliens do not have such a lust for knowledge like that, it is probably a commercial enterprise. These things cost money. Well maybe they call it something else but it would be the same thing. It would cost the planet some resources.

There would have to be some impelling reason, but which is it ? We don't even know if they have silicon and oxygen. We don't know if they have water, or if acid rain is the best rain because it cleans those damn mountains outta there. We have no idea how their society is structured. The might operate in a hive or whatever like bees. But even maybe then they have TVs. We have no idea.

I think the terracentric idea leans towards the desire to conquer, because it is innate in us. But on the flipside, the technology advances needed for interstellar transportation are pretty high. I think if they are a warlike race, like us, they would be more prone to self destruction than we. And we are.

T

(in reply to thompsonx)

Profile

Post #: 45