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RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/29/2010 7:36:32 AM   
cadenas


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There are several problems with deporting them. Mostly, it is just simply numbers.

- Simple logistics. We didn't manage to evacuate 100,000 people during Hurricane Katrina. How would we ever manage to deport 100 times as many people?
- We don't even have a way to arrest that many people. The USA has more prisoners than any other country in the world - yet even if we released every single prisoner, we still wouldn't have anywhere near enough space to house all those we'd try to deport.
- How do you find them? Here in California, Arizona and Texas, we have many families who lived here for 200 years, when this was Mexico. The vast majority of Hispanics are US citizens or legally here. California has 13.5 million Hispanics. 2/3 of them are native-born US citizens.

And then there are some additional problems:

- You can't afford to have such a large group to distrust the police. That's why most local police departments have a strict policy against asking about immigration status. If you try to arrest that many people, you are just creating a perfect hiding place for people like Timothy McVeigh.
- When you suddenly reduce the population by millions of people, you will have dramatic economic effects.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody
It does seem strange to me that you guys don't deport illegals....but, the usa is a big nation, lots and lots of room, built on immigration. It's understandable that people continue to head there, and maybe the solution would be to welcome them. What's with the harsh restrictions on immigration anyways?....usa is a big empty country, lotta talk about the loss of industry over there, could use more labour. Either deport them or let them come legally, one or the other.

(in reply to DCWoody)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/29/2010 9:21:37 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

- Simple logistics. We didn't manage to evacuate 100,000 people during Hurricane Katrina. How would we ever manage to deport 100 times as many people?


That wasnt logistics. And it wasnt that we couldnt. As far as the rest of your post, where do you come up with some of these things?

quote:

- You can't afford to have such a large group to distrust the police. That's why most local police departments have a strict policy against asking about immigration status. If you try to arrest that many people, you are just creating a perfect hiding place for people like Timothy McVeigh


Not asking has nothing to do with trust, and everything to do with voting. Now we are back to the threat of home grown terrorism because we expect people to come here legally???

Tell me, cadenas, what exactly do YOU see as the solution. I have a feeling i already know, but humor me.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/30/2010 12:40:06 AM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

- You can't afford to have such a large group to distrust the police. That's why most local police departments have a strict policy against asking about immigration status. If you try to arrest that many people, you are just creating a perfect hiding place for people like Timothy McVeigh

Not asking has nothing to do with trust, and everything to do with voting. Now we are back to the threat of home grown terrorism because we expect people to come here legally???

No, it's simply good policework. Los Angeles has the well-known Special Order 40 specifically for that reason.

Many other cities have such a policy. In fact, most cities in Arizona did. The state is now trying to force changing that down their throats. Here is an example from Dayton, OH: http://www.daytondailynews.com/o/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/daytoncrime/entries/2010/01/11/officers_can_no_longer_ask_for.html

quote:


Tell me, cadenas, what exactly do YOU see as the solution. I have a feeling i already know, but humor me.

Yep. Get to the root causes. We've tried enforcement for 40 years now, and every attempt only backfired worse than the next. What we need to do is return to the relatively sane immigration policy of the 1960s and 1970s.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/30/2010 12:43:33 AM   
cadenas


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I missed that question - what, specifically, are you referring to? I'll be happy to share the numbers and sources for them that my statements are based on.

BTW, I have worked with immigration law (mostly legal immigration) for going on 20 years, and if you are interested, I'll privately share details of it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
As far as the rest of your post, where do you come up with some of these things?

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/30/2010 2:27:58 AM   
tazzygirl


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I asked about your facts on the other thread. I would love to see the proof of the 20 year wait.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/30/2010 7:09:18 AM   
cadenas


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I didn't see your question in the other thread.

It's in the Dept. of State Visa Bulletin. Specifically, look at the priority date.

Quick tutorial on how the quota system works (I'll gloss over a few details - people have written books about this!)

When somebody wants to get a Green Card, the first thing they need is a sponsor. Only those listed in the preference categories can sponsor. Depending on the relationship with your sponsor, you fall into one of four categories. The longest wait is for brothers and sisters of US citizens (Family 4th preference).

The sponsor must file a petition. The date the petition is filed is called the priority date. That does NOT give the beneficiary any rights at all yet. It simply puts the beneficiary in line for a quota number. Green Cards are handed out on a first-come, first-served basis, separately for each category and country of birth. When more people apply than the quota allows, the extra applicants are rolled into the next year, then the year after etc.

The beneficiary then has to wait in his home country until the priority date is "current". Once the priority date is current, the beneficiary can then apply for an immigrant visa at a US consulate. The visa bulletin tells you which priority date is current for each category.

When you look at the Family 4th category (that's brothers and sisters of US citizens), you will notice that the priority date for the Philippines is September 8, 1987. That means that those who applied in 1988 have been rolled not just into 1989, 1990, 1991, but kept rolling into 2010 and are still waiting. That's 23 years and counting.

For Mexico, the quota wait is 18 or 15 years depending on the category (except for spouses - due to a quirk, their quota wait is almost never longer than five or six years).

Family 1st - that's for reuniting children with their parents. The priority date is October 15, 1992.
Family 2a - that's for reuniting spouses with each other. This is the only priority date that is even in this century: January 1, 2005.
Family 2B - that's for a different scenario of reuniting children with their parents. The priority date is June 15, 1992.
Family 3 - that's yet another scenario of reuniting children and their parents. The priority date is October 15, 1992.
Family 4th - Brothers and sisters of US citizens. The priority date is December 8, 1995.

A couple more notes: these numbers are misleading and actually understate the problem for a couple reasons. For one, the wait has grown dramatically over last twenty years or so. If a Filipino in the Family 4th category applied today, it is likely that he'd have to wait closer to 40 years rather than the 23 years that the visa bulletin suggests.

For another, in order to even qualify, the sponsor first has to either be a US citizen, or in two of the categories it is enough to just have a Green Card of his own.

BTW: highly skilled people can also qualify in the employment-based categories. Most of those are current, but in reality it also takes up to ten years or more (my own took eight years). I'd be happy to explain, but I don't want this to get too long.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I asked about your facts on the other thread. I would love to see the proof of the 20 year wait.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/30/2010 7:32:16 AM   
tazzygirl


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Thank you for the source.

My next question.... an explanation of what these two parts mean to you.

D. BACKGROUND INFORMATION ON FREQUENTLY MISUNDERSTOOD POINTS

Applicants entitled to immigrant status become documentarily qualified at their own initiative and convenience. By no means has every applicant with a priority date earlier than a prevailing cut-off date been processed for final visa action. On the contrary, a significant amount of demand is received each month for applicants who have priority dates which are significantly earlier than the applicable cut-off dates. In addition, fluctuations in demand can cause cut-off date movement to slow, stop, or even retrogress. Retrogression is particularly possible near the end of the fiscal year as visa issuance approaches the annual limitations.

Per-country limit: The annual per-country limitation of 7% is a cap which visa issuances to any single country may not exceed. Applicants compete for visas primarily on a worldwide basis. The country limitation serves to avoid monopolization of virtually all the annual limitation by applicants from only a few countries. This limitation is not a quota to which any particular country is entitled, however.


The way im reading this, to me, means that no one or two countries can monopolize all the quotas. Could, say the Philipine applicants be that numerous that their wait is dramatically longer than all the others? I noticed from your site that others are 2006. Does that mean those who applied in 2006 now have their numbers?

*NOTE: For April, 2A numbers EXEMPT from per-country limit are available to applicants from all countries with priority dates earlier than 01JAN05. 2A numbers SUBJECT to per-country limit are available to applicants chargeable to all countries EXCEPT MEXICO with priority dates beginning 01JAN05 and earlier than 01JUN06. (All 2A numbers provided for MEXICO are exempt from the per-country limit; there are no 2A numbers for MEXICO subject to per-country limit.)

This refers to the children and spouses section...

Second: Spouses and Children, and Unmarried Sons and Daughters of Permanent Residents: 114,200, plus the number (if any) by which the worldwide family preference level exceeds 226,000, and any unused first preference numbers:

A. Spouses and Children: 77% of the overall second preference limitation, of which 75% are exempt from the per-country limit;

B. Unmarried Sons and Daughters (21 years of age or older): 23% of the overall second preference limitation.



So, in essence, what i am seeing is the attempt to be fair in distrubiting visa's based on a formula and not on region. I also see the attempt to keep the immediate family together. Brothers and Sisters i do not consider a priority, and it seems, neither does the government.

My question to you, at this point, is do you see visas and citizenship as a right or a priveledge?




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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/30/2010 7:44:42 AM   
pahunkboy


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I know a girl that was conned- married just to get the guy in here.  She then adopted his 5 kids.  Next- he sent for his other wife.  At the point she felt swindled.  Of course it was too late by then.  He took her for every dime.


On the bright side- gay marriage is not the wedge issue.   (this time)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/30/2010 8:12:39 AM   
tazzygirl


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Um.... unless im mistaken, he cant stay if the marriage isnt legal.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/30/2010 8:36:20 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I know a girl that was conned- married just to get the guy in here.


PH,
This is an 'industry' in SoCal. Latest quote is $10k for 'marrying' and bringing to the US, a person from the Philippines. Since Mexico already has a port of entry and 'sanctuary cities' in CA - I don't think you get as much; but its still done routinely. Those caught are exceptions; and the consequences are meaningless and not enough to be a deterrent.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/30/2010 8:39:38 AM   
pahunkboy


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Merc, this guy was from India.  The woman was a bit obese- so she fell for his charm. Married him in 3 weeks.  She is a really nice lady and I hated to see her hurt.

She had assets- today she has nothing.   It was only a span of 3 years. I hear this goes on alot in NC.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/30/2010 10:43:21 AM   
cadenas


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OK, you are digging deep into the complexities of the quota system here. Basically, your understanding seems approximately right, no country can monopolize the immigration quota. That was actually very ill-conceived. India and China ended up on that list only because they are big countries. Liechtenstein simply isn't likely to send 25,600 immigrants per year! And I agree, the original intent when the system was created in the 1950s was to be quite fair. And it kind of worked for about 20 years. But since then, it has completely utterly melted down to the point that it is completely unworkable, and today greatly promotes illegal immigration.

Your implied question was: do we have a right to make such stupid laws? Yes, absolutely we have the right to make any immigration law we want. But when we make a stupid law, then we have to live with the consequences. We've been throwing an "enforcement" tantrum for 30+ years now. Maybe it's time to learn the lesson and get smarter about what we are doing, instead of doing the same thing over yet another time.

Here is another quirk for you: did you know that until a few years ago, somebody could be perfectly legally in the USA until the day he left - and by the act of leaving the USA could become an illegal immigrant? Sounds absurd, doesn't it? There even was a catch-22 scenario where you could become an illegal immigrant by leaving, AND by not leaving. Yet it was a fairly common occurrence until INS fixed it a few years ago.

BTW, this is not "my site" but rather an official publication from Dept. of State. The explanations are somewhat terse and don't cover all the subtleties, but on the plus side they are written to be understandable to ordinary humans.

There are actually three quotas interacting with each other in an extremely complex way. First of all, let's completely forget about the employment-based system, just to keep it somewhat simple and some semblance of sanity.

First, there is the worldwide quota. That's 226,000.
Second, there is the per-category quota. The law expresses it as a percentage of the overall quota. You can find the actual limits in the visa bulletin, so I won't reprint them here.
Third, there's the per-country quota. That one actually is simple: no more than 25,600 immigrants from any one country per year. At least on the surface. BTW, this is the total for both family and employment-based. And one of the family-based categories (2A) only counts 25% towards the per-country quota. Also, what counts is the country of birth, regardless of the actual nationality. And there are special rules for places that have changed from one country to another (for instance, a Slovak citizen born in the formerly Czechoslovakian city of Prague, now in the Czech Republic, counts as Czech for quota purposes). There are also special rules for dependent places such as Hong Kong or Northern Ireland.

When there are fewer than 25,600 immigrants from a country, the per-country quota really doesn't have any impact. That's why the visa bulletin has a column "All Chargeability Areas except...". It's usually called the worldwide quota. That is simply based on the quota numbers for each individual category.

Only four countries currently reach the per-country quotas. China and India simply are huge countries. When there are a billion people, it's much easier to reach the 25,600 quota than when you are in a tiny country such as Liechtenstein. Mexico is obvious. The Philippines are on the list for a historic reason. Until 1946, the Philippines had a status similar to Puerto Rico or Guam today. Many Filipinos moved to the USA at the time. After the Filipino independence, many families were split between the USA and the Philippines. What we are seeing in the immigration quota is the aftermath of that fact.

Now to answer your points. First of all, I originally glossed over one important detail. For the Family 1st, Family 3rd and Family 4th preference, the sponsor must be a US citizen. For the F2A and F2B categories, the sponsor must have a Green Card.

When Congress created the categories in the 1950s, the numbers actually reflected whom they considered most important - thus the name Priority Category. What Congress had in mind really was quite fair, but it didn't quite work out as intended.

Most important are spouses of US citizens, unmarried minor children of US citizens, and parents of ADULT US citizens. In fact, they are so important that Congress exempted them from the quota. These three groups are called "immediate relatives" and can immigrate regardless of quota (The red tape takes between six months and five years depending on circumstances).

Next important are grown-up children of US citizens. The idea here is that grown-ups can be on their own, so they don't have a pressing need to immigrate. And that would be a reasonable assumption - but Congress wasn't expecting the meltdown of the quota system and that it would lead to an 18 year delay.
Following that is family members of Green Card holders. Green Card holders are "citizens to be" - aren't yet full citizens, so they get less preferential treatment. Again, the assumption would be reasonable if it wasn't for the outcome: approximately one million families are currently waiting to be reunited in this category. Worse, because of a separate provision in immigration law, these spouses aren't even allowed to VISIT the USA. Congress tried to fix this by introducing the Family 2A category, but as you can see from the numbers, it isn't working. By the way, estimates are that about half of these spouses decided that immigrating illegally is a lesser evil than being separated for five to six years.
The third category is married children of US citizens. Makes sense, again.
The final category are brothers and sisters of US citizens. Again, it makes sense to have the priority set this way.

Note the categories that AREN'T on the list:
  • "Anchor babies". They are a myth just as the unicorn is. Minor children, even US citizens, can't sponsor anybody (once a US citizen child turns 21, he or she can sponsor his parent as an immediate relative.
  • Uncles, Aunts, Grandparents, Grandchildren, cousins, ... Sorry, they can't sponsor. Only very close family members can.
  • Married children of legal immigrants. At first glance, that seems logical, but in reality it's absurd. It leads to the odd situation that children have to time their weddings around their parent's naturalization date, or they lose their place in line.
There used to be one more category: non-priority immigrants. That's everybody else. When Congress created the quota system, they assumed that the quota would be plenty - when the priority groups where exhausted, then anybody else who wants to come would get a chance.

Well, it didn't work out that way. What sounded good in theory in the 1950s completely and utterly broke down once the quota limit was reached. Today, the delays have little to do with the supposedly desirable priorities. For instance, look at the Family 1st and 2B categories for the Philippines. How come the Filipino child of a US citizen has to wait four years LONGER than the child of a Filipino Green Card holder? BTW, Congress actually addressed this particular problem. I just wish they recognized that all of this - and the surge in illegal immigration - is simply a result of the collapsed legal immigration system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Thank you for the source.

My next question.... an explanation of what these two parts mean to you.

D. BACKGROUND INFORMATION ON FREQUENTLY MISUNDERSTOOD POINTS

Applicants entitled to immigrant status become documentarily qualified at their own initiative and convenience. By no means has every applicant with a priority date earlier than a prevailing cut-off date been processed for final visa action. On the contrary, a significant amount of demand is received each month for applicants who have priority dates which are significantly earlier than the applicable cut-off dates. In addition, fluctuations in demand can cause cut-off date movement to slow, stop, or even retrogress. Retrogression is particularly possible near the end of the fiscal year as visa issuance approaches the annual limitations.

Per-country limit: The annual per-country limitation of 7% is a cap which visa issuances to any single country may not exceed. Applicants compete for visas primarily on a worldwide basis. The country limitation serves to avoid monopolization of virtually all the annual limitation by applicants from only a few countries. This limitation is not a quota to which any particular country is entitled, however.


The way im reading this, to me, means that no one or two countries can monopolize all the quotas. Could, say the Philipine applicants be that numerous that their wait is dramatically longer than all the others? I noticed from your site that others are 2006. Does that mean those who applied in 2006 now have their numbers?

*NOTE: For April, 2A numbers EXEMPT from per-country limit are available to applicants from all countries with priority dates earlier than 01JAN05. 2A numbers SUBJECT to per-country limit are available to applicants chargeable to all countries EXCEPT MEXICO with priority dates beginning 01JAN05 and earlier than 01JUN06. (All 2A numbers provided for MEXICO are exempt from the per-country limit; there are no 2A numbers for MEXICO subject to per-country limit.)

This refers to the children and spouses section...

Second: Spouses and Children, and Unmarried Sons and Daughters of Permanent Residents: 114,200, plus the number (if any) by which the worldwide family preference level exceeds 226,000, and any unused first preference numbers:

A. Spouses and Children: 77% of the overall second preference limitation, of which 75% are exempt from the per-country limit;

B. Unmarried Sons and Daughters (21 years of age or older): 23% of the overall second preference limitation.



So, in essence, what i am seeing is the attempt to be fair in distrubiting visa's based on a formula and not on region. I also see the attempt to keep the immediate family together. Brothers and Sisters i do not consider a priority, and it seems, neither does the government.

My question to you, at this point, is do you see visas and citizenship as a right or a priveledge?


< Message edited by cadenas -- 4/30/2010 10:44:16 AM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/30/2010 10:52:55 AM   
cadenas


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You are correct. Watch the movie "Green Card" with Andie McDowell and Gerard Depardieu. Even though it was Hollywood, it actually was surprisingly accurate. They did take some liberties, but overall INS (at the time) or USCIS (today) really does investigate these marriages very carefully. It's one of the reasons why it takes six months to five years even for US citizens.

I don't buy pahunk's story. For one, if the man was already married, then he would be automatically deportable for bigamy as well as for fraud. Even if he didn't get caught, he couldn't possibly "send for his wife" - read my elaborate explanation of the family categories to understand why. His other wife wouldn't even get a tourist visa at a US consulate.

So that story is plain B.S.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Um.... unless im mistaken, he cant stay if the marriage isnt legal.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 4/30/2010 11:22:08 AM   
pahunkboy


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He had divorced his wife on India.  But then sent for her later.

(in reply to cadenas)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 5/1/2010 1:18:21 AM   
tazzygirl


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pahunk, she wouldnt have been able to come because she had no sponsor. her ex husband could not sponsor her because they were not married.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 5/1/2010 2:44:39 AM   
cadenas


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Joined: 11/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
pahunk, she wouldnt have been able to come because she had no sponsor. her ex husband could not sponsor her because they were not married.


Plus, the US consulates in India are notorious for denying tourist visas to unmarried Indian women. So she probably couldn't even come for a visit.

There is one way Pahunk's scenario could have plaid out:

- Man gets divorced in India.
- Man marries US citizen woman.
- US citizen sponsors him & children. To do that, the US citizen must be fairly wealthy (poor people in the USA are ineligible to sponsor. The minimum required income depends on how big the family is - to sponsor five children, she'd have to make at least $41k/year).
- Man stays married to US citizen woman for approximately five years (depending on the red tape, it can actually be anywhere between four and ten years) and applies for US citizenship when eligible.
- Man becomes a US citizen
- Man divorces US citizen wife (note: he can divorce her after about two to three years, but then he has to wait even longer to become a US citizen and be able to sponsor his Indian wife).
- Man marries Indian spouse
- Man sponsors Indian spouse. To do that, he again has to show that he makes at least $41k.
- Man and Indian spouse must convince USCIS or consular officers that their divorce wasn't just to get a Green Card. Else he'd be stripped of his US citizenship, and they'd both be banned for life for immigration fraud (and the original US citizen wife may be arrested and sentenced to up to five years in prison).

Note that it takes five to ten years before he can remarry his former Indian wife, AND he must have substantial income of his own.

Basically, pahunk's story is probably an urban legend. Unfortunately, there are quite a few immigration-related urban legends.


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 5/1/2010 4:46:09 AM   
eyesopened


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I understand it's not easy to get into the United States legally.  Is there another country that allows more people per year to legally enter their country?  Is there another country where it is much easier?  That would be interesting information.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 5/1/2010 6:40:24 AM   
cadenas


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Australia, Switzerland and Canada all have far higher immigrant numbers than the USA (as a percentage of the population). In absolute numbers, well - since the USA is the largest country in the world by population, except for India and China, that's a pretty useless number. Even so, tiny Canada admits close to as many immigrants every year as the USA does. I personally know quite a few people who gave up waiting for the US ordeal and moved to Canada instead.

BTW, Australia has a 24% immigrant population. Switzerland has 22%. Canada has 19%. The USA has a paltry 12%.

As an aside, another interesting observation: Mexico has a major illegal immigration problem of its own on it's southern border. And Mexico, too, has a very restrictive immigration policy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
I understand it's not easy to get into the United States legally.  Is there another country that allows more people per year to legally enter their country?  Is there another country where it is much easier?  That would be interesting information.



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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 5/1/2010 6:59:09 AM   
thornhappy


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Do these guys think that microchipping an illegal alien will make them detectable from a distance?

Are they planning to microchip the white illegals and not just the brown ones?

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: GOP candidate’s ‘microchip an illegal’ commen... - 5/1/2010 7:00:55 AM   
tazzygirl


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my understanding is that it works only close up, like 10 feet or something.... so i dont think we will be seeing them from outter space anytime soon.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to thornhappy)
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