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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 2:49:35 PM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		Re: OP, this has been coming for years, govts promising money they won't have to pay for 20 30 40 years. Now it's 40 years later, aging population, not enough money, etc. Similar thing's been happening here, not started reductions yet, just plans to shift the age up.

(in reply to brainiacsub)
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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 2:54:39 PM   
flcouple2009


Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline 		Roasted Anteater will start to look pretty good in retirement.



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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 2:57:55 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

I agree with you, rml, that this fund was plundered by our politicians again and again. But we can't solve the debt crisis by singing our coulda, shoulda, wouldas, now can we? Also, people need to be honest and recognize that SS was set up as a ponzi scheme to begin with. Even if we hadn't diverted funds from the trust, it was inevitable that the system would eventually become unsustainable. Maybe it's time to consider that SS should be something other than an entitlement, and phase it out in its current form.


I'm truly tired of hearing that reference.

A Ponzi scheme is a fraud, a swindle, an illegal act that someone profits on.

Social Security was set up as a trust fund and no, it was, and is not "inevitable" that the system collapses.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 3:16:34 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		It is not a ponzi by the classical definition, but the mechanics still hold. If you prefer, we can call it a pyramid or a "rob Peter to pay Paul" type of scenario. They are all similar in nature, but I will concede that SS is not a "fraudulent investment" scheme. Many believed in good faith that there would always be a supply of new contributors at the bottom. The govt forces people to participate, vs a true ponzi or pyramid where investors are voluntary. The point is, that fact that payments out > payments in is something that politicians should have considered along the way. Application of a little basic math could have alerted us that the system was unsustainable once the baby boomers reached retirement age. Our politicians have known this for years, there just hasn't been the political will to do anything about it.

<edited to add: You don't think a trust can be underfunded? Because it's a trust the well should never run dry?>

< Message edited by brainiacsub -- 4/29/2010 3:18:04 PM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 3:21:26 PM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		It's not inevitable that it collapses, but you can't take out money that doesn't exist. 10 million retirees taking out £100 pa each from a fund generating £300,000,000 pa (figures from the sky). It can't go on... the 'ponzi scheme' thing is just a phrase for retards who repeat words they know not the meaning of, but the government pension systems....in a variety of nations, are unsustainable when no politician dares reduce the cheque to sustainable levels. Maybe a good idea to lose the fixed number manifesto promises and do (earnings above inflation*0.99)/number of pensioners.



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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 3:25:02 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		And I am one of those retards who just said what you did earlier in this thread.

A ponzi or pyramid is not a bad analogy for how our govt pensions are funded. One doesn't need to be a genius to understand this.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 3:35:53 PM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		I'd say it's a really terrible analogy, but I was referring to people who just repeat the phrase they've heard someone say.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 4:45:09 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

And you would replace the monetary system with what?


A resource based economy, which utilizes existing resources instead of commerce.


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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 4:46:47 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		One has to watch the IMF.  They are after all natural resources- key word- "perpetual"



(in reply to subfever)
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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 5:04:28 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

And you would replace the monetary system with what?


A resource based economy, which utilizes existing resources instead of commerce.



Good luck with that.

All you need is love...da da da da da...
All you need is love...da da da da da...
All you need is love, love....
Love is all you need
Love is all you need.

(in reply to subfever)
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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 6:12:48 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		All you need is Goldman Sachs...da da da da da...
All you need is JPM...da da da da da...
All you need is Goldman Sachs, love....
JPMis all you need
JPMis all you need.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 6:17:08 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Nice try.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 6:24:06 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		...they might face criminal charges. So let the "love" flow.  lol

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 6:31:07 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		As they should, but love cannot be a replacement for a monetary system. A resource based economy would succeed or fail based the altruistic behavior of man. Get rid of money, and we'll all just have to learn to get by on love. Goldman and JP Morgan have nothing to do with it.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 6:35:39 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

A resource based economy, which utilizes existing resources instead of commerce.



There are so many things wrong with this that I don't even know where to begin. But I'll try with this - why, exactly, do you think that currency was created, if a direct barter system is more efficient?

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 6:38:18 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Brainiac, the Federal Reserve has EVERYTHING to do with it.

(in reply to Elisabella)
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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 6:40:04 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		These are the kinds of solutions you get from people who have little understanding of the problem. The guy who invented this concept admittedly has no formal education, so it doesn't surprise me that so many would see it as a panacea to world peace.

(in reply to Elisabella)
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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 6:42:10 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		LOL.  fiat money= rocks?


Hoard gold!

(in reply to brainiacsub)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 6:42:33 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		No, if we got rid or our monetary system and replaced it with some sort of barting for resources, eventually another more effiecient currency based system would arise. You don't need the Fed to have currency.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 6:44:37 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		You are precisely correct.

You don't need the Fed to have currency.

:-)

(in reply to brainiacsub)
Profile   Post #: 40
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