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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 9:53:32 PM   
subfever


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

You mean other than your worldview being that of a hopeless idealist?


Okay, perhaps you couldn't find anything I've specifically said that you're in disagreement with, or you just don't wish to engage me on this level.

If you want to exit by simply attaching labels, then we'll call it a day...

< Message edited by subfever -- 4/29/2010 9:54:59 PM >

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 9:55:36 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		Everything you've said I disagree with because it is not realistic. What part of that did you not understand?

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 10:11:08 PM   
subfever


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quote:

Everything you've said I disagree with because it is not realistic. What part of that did you not understand?


You disagree with everything I've said?

So then, you disagree with all of the following statements?:

1) The monetary system emerged thousands of years ago, when scarcity of resources was an every day problem. A method was needed to distribute goods and services, compensating those who worked to create them.

2) Our current methods of social conduct have proven to have no chance in resolving environmental destruction, human conflict, poverty, corruption, and other issues that reduce the possibility of collective human sustainability on this planet.

3) It's time we grow up as a species, and truly examine what the problems and solutions are... as uncomfortable and non-traditional as they may seem.

4) The monetary-based labor system has been a staple of society for so long, that most people can't even imagine a world without it... even though the mechanisms of the system has created problems ranging from monetary crimes and emotional distortion, to vast abuse and exploitation of mankind and the ecosystem.

5) The whole world stands at odds with itself, with individuals, businesses, and countries perpetually working to defend what they have, always seeking more... often by force or corruption.

6) The whole world is now in debt to itself, owing comical amounts of money, while the integrity of the world financial structure is on the verge of collapse.

7) Doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results, is the definition of insanity.

8) There is no such thing as a utopia. But there is change.


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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 10:18:29 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		No, I don't agree with your solution.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 10:35:53 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

All goods and services would be available without currency, credit, barter, or any form of debt or servitude. It would free humanity from the repetitive, mundane, and arbitrary occupational roles which hold no true relevance for social development.

A resource-based economy would also encourage a new incentive system, focused upon self-fulfillment, education, social awareness, and creativity... as opposed to the shallow and self-centered goals of wealth, property, and power... which are the current primary incentives.


So um, who's going to provide these available services? It's one thing to say "I'm a dentist, I'll work on the mechanic's teeth in exchange for him fixing my car" but it's quite another to say "do any work you find fulfilling" and not expect there to be an abundance of "artists" and a shortage of manual laborers.

As far as the "shallow and self centered goals of wealth, property and power" those things have contributed far more to society than you seem to realize, and seem to be an inherent part of the human social animal. You might as well call a wolf "shallow and self centered" for fighting to become the alpha.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 10:58:40 PM   
subfever


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quote:

So um, who's going to provide these available services? It's one thing to say "I'm a dentist, I'll work on the mechanic's teeth in exchange for him fixing my car" but it's quite another to say "do any work you find fulfilling" and not expect there to be an abundance of "artists" and a shortage of manual laborers.

As far as the "shallow and self centered goals of wealth, property and power" those things have contributed far more to society than you seem to realize, and seem to be an inherent part of the human social animal. You might as well call a wolf "shallow and self centered" for fighting to become the alpha.


Our beliefs and values are not inherent. They are shaped by culture.

While there is a genetic basis to certain human attributes and behaviors, the knowledge we have and they way we think and act upon that knowledge is fundamentally an environmental phenomenon.

The monetary system is not at all related to our true capacity to produce goods and services on this planet.

Our problems in life are technical, and nothing more. Labor is being replaced by machines at an amazing rate. Cybernated-machine technology will alleviate the need for labor as we now know it.

(in reply to Elisabella)
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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/29/2010 11:19:03 PM   
subfever


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quote:

No, I don't agree with your solution.


Then it should be safe to assume that you're in agreement with my 8 statements, and we therefore see the reality of our current world quite similarly. In this event, isn't our worldview is more similar than dissimilar?

Since we're in agreement with these matters, then you must also recognize the need to solve these problems. You claimed earlier that you're okay with thinking outside the box, though I haven't seen any evidence of this yet.

What alternative solutions do you offer to solve the problems of greed, corruption, poverty, pollution, and war?

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/30/2010 4:13:12 AM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
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Status: offline 		Actually pah, gold=rocks.

Hoard lead, it's easier to carry.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/30/2010 5:37:45 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Yeah Fever, why would anyone want resources- get real STOMP lol

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/30/2010 7:18:02 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

I share the dream, but unfortunately that's all it is - just a dream. If someone can demonstrate such a workable utopia, I'd be willing to listen.

Kibbutzes seem to work pretty well.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/30/2010 9:55:21 AM   
brainiacsub


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From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever


What alternative solutions do you offer to solve the problems of greed, corruption, poverty, pollution, and war?

You haven't offered a solution to these problems either. That is what I've been trying to tell you. Just because you believe a RBE sounds like a jolly good idea, doesn't mean it will solve our problems. What...are you twelve? Tell you what...I propose that we give every man, woman, and child on the planet a small bag of magic beans that will provide all the food, water, shelter, and medicine to last a lifetme. My solution is just as plausible as yours.

I can't waste any more time with this. I have to think today.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/30/2010 10:47:08 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		yeah brain- next post type it up on a paper computer.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/30/2010 1:44:03 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

As far as the "shallow and self centered goals of wealth, property and power" those things have contributed far more to society than you seem to realize, and seem to be an inherent part of the human social animal. You might as well call a wolf "shallow and self centered" for fighting to become the alpha.


That's certainly an amazing outlook on life.

Being shallow and self-centered contributes to the welfare of mankind.

Very amazing.

(in reply to Elisabella)
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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/30/2010 2:04:11 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub

It is not a ponzi by the classical definition, but the mechanics still hold. If you prefer, we can call it a pyramid or a "rob Peter to pay Paul" type of scenario. They are all similar in nature, but I will concede that SS is not a "fraudulent investment" scheme. Many believed in good faith that there would always be a supply of new contributors at the bottom. The govt forces people to participate, vs a true ponzi or pyramid where investors are voluntary. The point is, that fact that payments out > payments in is something that politicians should have considered along the way. Application of a little basic math could have alerted us that the system was unsustainable once the baby boomers reached retirement age. Our politicians have known this for years, there just hasn't been the political will to do anything about it.

<edited to add: You don't think a trust can be underfunded? Because it's a trust the well should never run dry?>


Because it is a trust the money should not have been diverted for other purposes, which then gave rise to the idea promoted by ideological opponents of Social Security like Peterson claiming the fund is a fiction and the government has no obligation to honor its debt.



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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/30/2010 2:15:48 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		I agree with you that the govt misspent the funds. The question now is, how do we keep the program solvent? Without cutting entitlements, the only other option is to raise taxes. It's just not practical to frame this argument by saying "the govt is obligated to pay it's debts." No, the govt is obligated to keep the country from bancruptcy, and if that means cutting entitlements, especially to those who don't need it, then so be it. I don't like it any more than you do, but the alternatives are pretty thin.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/30/2010 2:19:08 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

As far as the "shallow and self centered goals of wealth, property and power" those things have contributed far more to society than you seem to realize, and seem to be an inherent part of the human social animal. You might as well call a wolf "shallow and self centered" for fighting to become the alpha.


That's certainly an amazing outlook on life.

Being shallow and self-centered contributes to the welfare of mankind.

Very amazing.


rml, I don't think that's what she meant. She was "quoting" Fever for sarcastic effect.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/30/2010 2:19:15 PM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		and yet- we are perpetually in such a state of bankruptcy.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 4/30/2010 2:36:57 PM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		The US govt isn't bankrupt or near so, because it could raise taxes. It can get into as much debt as it likes, as long as people are willing to lend....with China staking its economy partially on sales to the us, and being the largest economy....usa could pile on a LOT more yet.

That's the thing with national debts for rich nations, it's always going to get paid.....those who're still lending to Greece now, are going to get their money back....and the massive interest on top. The problems with overwhelming debts isn't that a nation can go bankrupt....it isn't realistically going to happen to any G20 nation.....it's merely that the citizenry end up with mass taxes going to pay the interest on the debt. That's one of the reasons I'm not so worried about the UK as many, the interest on our borrowing remains extremely low.....unlike greece.....and I imagine it's the same for the usa.

The difference between usa and UK, is that UKs burgeoning govt debt levels are a result of the credit crisis, previously UK national debt was stable, actually falling slightly as % GDP, with interest payments being trimmed down to very equitable levels indeed.....and there's all party consensus on cutting the deficit, and getting national debt back falling again by 201X....where X varies slightly depending who you ask. USA national debt was shooting up under reagan, and again under bush, and the problems with your welfare system have been predicted for a long long time....and (maybe I'm just not aware of it but) the 2 parties don't seem to be particularly committed to doing much about it, IIRC both presidential candidates ran on 'no tax rises'...which seems very odd in the circumstances.

If this continues, it will lead to usaicans paying hefty taxes for big interest&profits for bankers (you might blame the bankers&investors, I blame the politicians choosing to borrow money)...but NOT, the us going bankrupt. There are very few scenarios (mass natural disaster eg yellowstone, civil war, losing WW3 with china) that could result in usa failing it's debt obligations....there isn't any chance of it simply collapsing under the weight of its debt.  The US isn't bankrupt, and it isn't going to go bankrupt.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 5/2/2010 3:08:50 PM   
subfever


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quote:

You haven't offered a solution to these problems either. That is what I've been trying to tell you.


In post 64, you specifically said "I don't agree with your solution." Perhaps you may want to review.

quote:

Just because you believe a RBE sounds like a jolly good idea, doesn't mean it will solve our problems. What...are you twelve? Tell you what...I propose that we give every man, woman, and child on the planet a small bag of magic beans that will provide all the food, water, shelter, and medicine to last a lifetme. My solution is just as plausible as yours.


I will cease to engage you, if you continue to treat me with disrespect. I’m interested in a rational discussion, not a superficial pissing match.

As an avowed “realist,” what you would have said to the Wright brothers as they began to assemble their plans to build a flying machine? What would you have said to Gandhi or MLK Jr. before they raised the collective consciousness of the masses enough to effect change?

The fact that previous attempts at social change have failed, is no justification for us to stop trying. The real danger lies in complacence. The only limitations to the future of humankind are those that we impose upon ourselves.

Since you have offered no solutions of your own, I’ll operate under the assumption that you have none. However, before I invest my time to explain the solution in more detail, let’s first see if we agree on the goals for all the earth’s citizens.

Clean air and water
Nutritious food
Material abundance
Fast, clean, efficient transportation
Relevant education
Public health care
The end of war
Personal liberty
An environment that enables us to constantly improve our abilities
Reduced stress
Reduced crime

If you don’t agree with the goals, you almost certainly won’t agree with the methods to obtain them.

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RE: Sanctimonious Deficit Hawks Target Social Safety Net - 5/2/2010 6:36:32 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		I didn't participate in this thread to offer solutions to the world's problems. You offered that and I don't agree with it. It's that simple. It's disengenuous of you to suggest that I don't share your goals for the world if I don't agree with you on how to achieve them. It may be entirely possible that these goals aren't achievable unless you change human nature itself. Good luck with that. I prefer to improve on what we have as opposed to starting over.

If you are really serious about RBE being the solution to the utopia that you seek, then start with the building blocks. Since religion is the major cause of so much that is wrong with humanity, tell me how you would eliminate it, since you can't achieve the goals you stated as long as religion controls culture and human behavior. If you are going to say that you can achieve these goals through RBE alone without eliminating religion, then you are already assuming too much.

You started a thread on this topic a couple of months ago, and you didn't have any converts then, and you are kinda wasting your time with me, and it's not because I don't value rational discussion. This just doesn't qualify in my view. No pissing match intended.

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