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RE: The final week. - 5/1/2010 12:17:35 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

My area is the same as yours Lilly. Always Conservative with some votes for the Liberal. I can no longer bring myself to vote Labour.

NG. I think you are right to look at those issues you find most important to you. Do you worry that once in power, those you voted for will change track though ? This happens so often I have lost faith with both Conservative and Labour.


When were you voting labour? No offense intended, but you always tend to strike me as rather high tory. Were you one of the people who switched parties during Blair's first couple of terms?


I started voting Labour when I left school and was an active trade unionist. I lost faith back in the late 70s due to episodes like the three day week, and the constant militant nonsense that stopped me from working. I voted for Thatcher and frankly dont regret it. I lost faith with her over the poll tax and have felt that since then most polititions are only self serving. Oddly enough I was in the Students union when Jack Straw had more principles than he has now. Prescott has moved from far left to playing croquet. Most of new labour send their kids to private schools. Yet insist state schools are good enough for everyone else.

I would guess I come across as high Tory due to my distain for new Labour. If you read my posts though i have always spoken highly of people like Tony Benn and Nye Bevin.

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: The final week. - 5/1/2010 1:12:42 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		I stand corrected.
(I was thinking more of you talking about all the good Thatcher did the country a few times, to be honest. I don't recall you mentioning either Benn or Bevan, though, so mea culpa.)

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: The final week. - 5/1/2010 1:16:11 PM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		To massively simplify it, Thatcher did great things for the country, terrible things for the people.

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RE: The final week. - 5/1/2010 1:43:25 PM   
LillyoftheVally


Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
Status: offline 		Simplify or get it wrong DCWoody? She did good things for some people too and terrible things for the country

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RE: The final week. - 5/1/2010 1:45:41 PM   
DCWoody


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Status: offline 		What terrible things for the country are you thinking of?

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RE: The final week. - 5/1/2010 2:59:50 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		I can't speak for Lilly, but trashing manufacturing industry, dismantling public services in order to privatise them to bribe the electorate with tax cuts, staging a war for publicity purposes (the Falklands wouldn't have been invaded in the first place if she'd left the flotilla that had been stationed there in place) and setting the ball rolling on thirty years of neglect of the NHS weren't really good for the country. Then there's Trident.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: The final week. - 5/1/2010 3:05:08 PM   
DCWoody


Posts: 1401
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline 		No offense intended when I say I probably can't respond to someone who thinks she 'staged a war for publicity purposes'.

I also struggle with your maths....starting 30 years...assuming immediately in 79...only just finished in 09?..because 10/11/12 etc are going to be big investment years?

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RE: The final week. - 5/1/2010 3:43:11 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Manufacturing started to die out long before Thatcher came on the scene as PM, as did the coal industry. Moonehead I am unsure where you get a neglect of the health service from either. I worked in construction on a firm which built or refurbished hospitals right through the 80s and 90s. I am sure the people who mention all the bad things she did for the country, never lived under Labour in the 70s.

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RE: The final week. - 5/1/2010 4:11:09 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

Banking, I want them split, I dont need a fancy pants bank who take risks, I like the idea of splitting investment banks and just normal every day banks for current accounts etc.

Yeah we are a tory area but the second has always been Liberal Democrats, I am hoping that this time enough people have been woken up to their policies and they could get in



I don't see a great deal of problem with a bank offering a portfolio of products.....but their compliance (or otherwise) with banking industry regulations needs to be made available to the public....in their annual financial statements or something.

Apparently there are around 4 million people who will definitely vote and haven't made up their minds yet......

Problem is that the Lib Dems are targetting the Northern and Midlands Labour seats for campaigning.....which means the anti-Tory vote will be split....letting in the Tories.

I think the Tories will get the majority they need to form a government.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: The final week. - 5/1/2010 4:21:05 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I am starting to like a lot of what I read about the Lib-Dems. I dont agree with some of the policies they have on the EU. I think the financial crisis in Greece will be a disaster for the Euro. I like the fact they have some fresh ideas though. I think one of the stumbling blocks to progress for the UK is the old two party system. This time we need change and not just empty promises.

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RE: The final week. - 5/1/2010 4:23:00 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

My area is the same as yours Lilly. Always Conservative with some votes for the Liberal. I can no longer bring myself to vote Labour.

NG. I think you are right to look at those issues you find most important to you. Do you worry that once in power, those you voted for will change track though ? This happens so often I have lost faith with both Conservative and Labour.


Yeah...politicians suggests they are more radical than they actually are when in opposition.....and more cautious than they'd like to be when in power.

I'm just not a Tory voter at all...can't see it ever happening....and Labour are jaded and tainted by Iraq and this whole climate of fear.....nothing that the Tories wouldn't have done by the way.

Lib Dems really offer something different...though I would have gone further than Clegg in the second debate and would say that Afghanistan was/is a mistake too....a wild goose chase with unachievable objectives....assuming anyone knows what those objectives are.

It's a mindset thing for me.....when Clegg spoke about the illegal immigrant situation...I sat there and thought finally we have someone who weighs it up and comes up with something sensible rather than pandering to base fears and prejudices.....how much money would it cost to go and find these people? and are we really going to hoy thousands of people out of the country?.....get them paying taxes. And you compare this to the Tory mindset of sticking up CCTV everywhere and effectively spying on people....and Labour's 'stop and search' nonsense....and I just think it's a breath of fresh air.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Politesub53)
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RE: The final week. - 5/1/2010 4:46:40 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Since you don't want to read my misinformed rants I will take it you won't be reading this either. Washed your hands.....India/Pakistan/Bang - Iraq - Palestine - SA - Zimbabwe - Nigeria ......need I go on? I've had similar discussions with other Europeans and it just isn't something that the populace there can admit or want to own up to. You are similar to them.



Oi mate...why don't you start a thread on the British Empire?

To help you out....

There will be a boat load of ruthless tactics employed by the British Government over the centuries that the general public simply aren't aware of. For one....the British Government seriously contemplated using mustard gas on Iraqi civilians to put down a rebellion over there.

But....like it or not....the world you and I live in has 'Made in England' stamped all over it.....from a language to banking systems to modern team sports....to the hotels in which you stay....to a plethora of scientific/technological/medical innovation....and so on....

And in 1890....15% of the British Army....were Irishmen.

But please do do us a favour and start a thread on it.......

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: The final week. - 5/1/2010 6:07:24 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		My mind is made up, it was from the start, I seek a breath of fresh air, new ideas from someone who in the past never had a chance. The two party system that has existed for so long has proved it is not the way forward, for new labour is so conservative, the old labour voters have lost faith. We need something new, The US got Obama, likewise we need something different so we can begin a new age of better thought.

The empire, forget it, it is long gone and dead and with that good riddance, but what now remains is the greatest empire known in history, that of the good ole' US of A, and even that is up to it's eyeballs in foreign debt, a country so young, but failing so fast, who will last longer I wonder, GB or the US of A.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: The final week. - 5/2/2010 2:51:18 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		"anyone but the Tories" is my opinion. Having experienced what happened the last time they got in at a time of national economic crisis in 1979 and having seen what happened when they negotiated one of their own in the 1990s it is my belief that whilst of all three they are likely to be most effective in resolving the national economic problems, they are the worst, most divisive and damaging in terms of the effects of their policies on ordinary people. They simply appear to not care one jot about the people, being focussed exclusively on the money markets and economy in the large. There is no doubt in my mind they could restore our national fortunes in half the time of the Lib Dems or Labour, but occasion thereby enormous damage on us mortals as they have done before.

Let us be clear though, that whoever wins this election if anyone, is going to be regarded as the bad guy for years after. The scale of our problems is unimaginable and the methods and means of their resolution of them is at this point similarly unthinkable. There is good reason to believe that no one really wants to win this election but would rather find themselves in coalition so as to share the blame around. If I were Cameron or Brown I would be thinking in such an arrangement of putting Cable into nr 11 to stitch the Lib Dem threat up for decades to come, allocating the blame for cuts and tax rises on them.

If the Lib Dems are clever they will not fall into such a trap and avoid at all costs any involvement in treasury affairs despite the popularity of Cable. What we want from this is to get PR in place - first past the post is the cause of all the problems we have in one way or another, change the tax system and get the Lords question resolved. The only reason for Lib Dems at nr 11 will be in the extremely unlikely event of a Tory/Lib Dem coalition - unthinkable considering the disagreement between them in every regard - and that only to act as a brake on the damage the Tories would do; even so such a coalition would cause me to seriously question my membership of the Lib Dems and I expect thousands of others too.

E



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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: The final week. - 5/2/2010 3:59:56 AM   
myotherself


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Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline 		~FR~

I'm one of those many thousands of people who are definitely going to vote, but still haven't decided who I will be voting for.

In my area, my local MP is the Foreign Secretary, David "invisible man" Milliband. I don't want to vote for a local MP who only ever comes to the North East to get his photograph taken for the press. He has a house in a lovely conservation area in the middle of town, but is rarely there. But he can still claim over twelve grand in one year for gardening services. And believe me, for a garden the size of his there is no way on this good earth that he can spend twelve grand on 'garden maintenance and plants' (not even building work!) unless he's shipping in gold-plated gardeners from the other side of the world.

The alternatives - Conservative. I just can't think I'll ever do it, and if I'm thinking strategically, then nor will many in this area. BUT Lib-Dem is a different kettle of fish. Many round here would vote for them. So to get rid of this 'safe seat London MP' crap, I need to vote tactically. Either Lib-Dem and possibly edge out Milliband, or one of the others and effectively have a 'protest' vote which makes a statement, but achieves little beyond that.

Lots more research to do, methinks

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There's nowt so queer as folk


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RE: The final week. - 5/2/2010 5:23:54 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		In my thinking, I don't care how the money markets are doing, I am not interested in the financial institutions and I don't suppose they are interested in us beyond what money they can screw out of us. I am interested in people, I want people to be benefiting in this country, not institutions that relocate wherever, whenever they perceive the situation worsening for them, they are parasites. I would rather this country be poor and the people content, even happy if that is possible than what we have always had. I believe in freedom, the freedom of people to live how they wish to live without government intervention.

I liken the interest in the money markets as opposed to the people as more of the same as what we have had through our history, the financiers taking the place of the aristos and the trade adventurers of the past, they in the past did what they did to expand their wealth at all costs whilst the commoner got nothing  but the residue of hate from other countries. The commoner gets the blame for the sins of others beyond their control and influence, something which has been shown in this very thread by others of other nationalities grinding axes in the wrong direction as usual for the sins of those beyond our control. In years to come, other nationalities will again be grinding axes against the harmless commoner for the sins of the money markets, we cannot win, and this because we let the parasites thrive in our country.

But what if this country was poor, the financial rats had jumped ship long ago, what if we had a content people, people who could live their lives how they wished without interference from beauraucracy or other busy bodies with nothing better to do, what if education was prime, and we became a highly educated country with skills paralleling our own personal interests, what future might we have then I wonder, and think the rise of this country again to a position of greatness by virtue of intelligence, education and caring offered by the majority, not lies, theft and bloodshed of the minority.

It does bother me to think the great in Great britain is because of  British minority tyranny throughout the world,starting in their home country, subjugate your own people then the world is their oyster.

I do believe in this country, it is a case of them and us, but it is high time the us became more important than the them, but I will settle for equilibrium in the situation.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: The final week. - 5/2/2010 5:54:32 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I would agree Aneirin, except for some crucial factors

1) we need to be able to borrow money internationally to fund our governmental spending. Even reducing that spending to annual tax incomes, which would represent enormous deterioration in living standards for nearly all and especially the least well off, we would have to borrow to cope with cashflow demands when incomes dont match outgoings month by month. Without adequate influence on the markets we might find ourselves facing interest rates on sovereign debt of 20% as is the case for Greece - which translates through to the interest rates on domestic borrowing by citizens.
2) our corporations need to be able to borrow money/ obtain credit to fund their trade, especially their import trade. Since it would appear we cannot feed ourselves in this country and havent been able to for a long time now (centuries rather than decades) it is essential we are able to import food and so essential we are able to do so at a reasonable cost - this depends on currency values and the cost of borrowing/credit.
3) our entire economy is dependent on oil, just as everyone else's is. Oil and its products are traded and priced in US Dollars. If Sterling declines against the Dollar, the cost of fuel rises proportionally. It is therefore essential to maintain the value of Sterling at just the right level such that fuel is affordable, not only for industrial but also domestic use, whilst also maintaining its value at just the right value for exporting and other international trade (see 2)

All in all, unfortunate as it might be, we are part of this game and have to take part whether we like it or not. The consequences of regarding the international markets as unimportant would impact directly on us the peasantry, and we're not talking here about lower returns on investments but whether we get to eat today and whether we live with a roof over our head.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: The final week. - 5/2/2010 6:24:56 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Perhaps then, our ideas and striving for civilisation will be our undoing.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to LadyEllen)
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RE: The final week. - 5/2/2010 6:27:39 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		our reproductive success, increasing longevity and consumption based economy will be our undoing

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: The final week. - 5/2/2010 10:05:58 AM   
tigreetsa


Posts: 132
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: SW London
Status: offline 		I'm split between the Lib Dems and Labour.

I'm not convinced by the Conservatives one bit. Their campaign is idiotic, focussing on Labour's mistakes without realising that the Conservatives were the main opposition. Both Labour and the Conservatives have the wrong person as their leader. Gordon Brown is not a Prime Minister by any stretch of the imagination, neither is David Cameron. Of the three leaders Nick Clegg for me is the best choice for a Prime Minister.

What I would really love to see is an election which sees all three parties being required to work together - because I feel that this is in the best interests of everyone in the country.

I would love to see a Lib Dem - Labour coalition government which if it doesn't lead to electoral reform leads to the next best thing - restructuring of both Labour and the Conservative parties. I'd like to see Nick Clegg as the PM and Gordon Brown return to being the Chancellor and his role as an economist. I think the Conservatives need a more heavyweight leader such as Kenneth Clarke because I think both Labour and the Conservatives need to restructure their parties and maybe go back to their more traditional values.

Yes Thatcherism wasn't as successful as it was hoped, but it's also fair to say (in my opinion) that New Labour has been a bigger disaster. In my honest opinion we are in a similar situation to Eastern European countries in the early 1990's after the collapse of the former communist regimes. The free market economy hasn't worked, we need to be working towards social unity and at ways of reducing class divisions.

I'd like to see more investment in culture and sport, the setting up of a national network of local community centres to provide occupation for young people and others in the community to work at rebuilding our communities and to work against anti-social behaviour and crime.

I'd like to see serious (not cosmetic) welfare reforms which doesn't threaten or punish the jobless and those on benefits or use fear motivation to frighten them into taking menial jobs, but working on a focus on long term occupation work to provide training, funding, and practical help to help those on benefits not just find jobs but also become self-employed, and fund those who want to earn their own income from artistic, creative, cultural or sporting activities.

With respect to the above I'd like to see reforms in education, with the teaching of drama, music and literature as part of the National Curriculum. Children and young people are our future, we need to be preparing them for futures which involves their dreams and ambitions rather than menial service industry jobs, drugs, crime and drinking.

I'd also like to see policies which bring more older people back into society and allow them to make a much more significant contribution to society. In a little over a decade the baby boomers are going to start approaching retirement age and start outnumbering the working population. Many of these people will have not made sufficient arrangements for their retirement and I somehow don't believe pension funds have been managed with complete honesty. We simply won't be able to afford to financially support a growing number of elderly people on state pensions together with keeping poor people on welfare benefits out of society. I believe that people over 40 have a lot to offer society.

I'd also like to see media reform and to see policies which reduce the influence of the media in politics.

Before electoral reform I'd rather see social reform and for people to understand that being right and blaming others hasn't worked, that making money and a profit at all costs isn't as important as quality of life and solidarity among people at a local and national level. We need to stop expecting other people to make the changes and to take responsibility and start working towards changes together but each in our own individual way.

Personally I don't care who wins the election, as long as they're prepared to be honest and work with others for the good of everyone and stop lying, bullshitting to the electorate and also to stop fighting and arguing with each other.

Yeah right, so there's lots of problems and lots of mistakes have been made, but the UK is still a pretty decent place to be and we still have quite a lot to be proud of as a nation. We came together as a nation before and we can do it again.

We just need to believe we can.


_____________________________

'There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke
But you and I we've been through that
And that is not our fate
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late.'
All Along The Watchtower (Bob Dylan)

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 100
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