TreasureKY
Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
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LA, thank you for the well thought out response. I cannot guarantee that I'll be able to give this much attention today, but I'll take the time right now to address the issues you've brought up below.
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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Firstly, this wasn't an attack but rather a suggestion that you might want to go back to the source. As an educator by profession, I tend to do that. This might have been one of those instances in which the tone of my voice might have indicated my intent.
Perhaps this is a general failing of educators... to assume they've presented their information in a sufficient manner that the recipient should logically reach the desired conclusion. For future consideration, you might keep in mind that sometimes what seems like an "off-the-wall" question may have roots in genuine contemplation. Shutting down someone who asks questions is discouraging individual critical thinking.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I will tell you this before I continue. You did misunderstand and misinterpret my words, big time.
I appreciate that you've gone to the trouble of deciding what I do and do not understand, but I'd ask for the courtesy of allowing me to present my own thoughts myself.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I tried to craft my OP as democratically as possible, exposing my own assumptions that I was willing to have contested in the hopes of understanding things further and you come at me with your deductions which didn't reflect anything I said.
Assuming a position of superiority and judgment can lead to very poor communication. Perhaps trying to accept that you may not have communicated your original position as clearly as you thought, and considering that you may not know everyone else's mind as well as you think, might be a good place to start.
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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Alright, lets start with a definition. The bit you snipped from Dewey is a start but it is far from being complete.
Of course it's not complete, but to give a comprehensive overview would have required much more time than I cared to put into it. The small portion I did give was sufficient for my point. I'm not here to try to impress anyone with my vast knowledge.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Actually, pushing individuals, especially children, to cram facts in their skull without thinking about them critically does discourage critical thinking.
I'm not sure I agree, but more so on the point that this is a blanket definitive statement presented without any support. Even with evidence, I'd be hesitant to declare it an indisputable truth. Critical thinking does require information... how that information is gained not withstanding.
It would seem to me that the only way to actively discourage critical thinking is to present selected information in a vacuum and forbid questions.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
To teach children to reason, you have to have a conversation with them. I saw no conversations, only sermons. To teach children to reason, you have to ask them questions to get them to talk through their logical deductions. Oh sure there were interviews in the video, but they were post sermon interviews to ascertain what the children retained from the sermon, not to get them to come to any logical deductions. The fact that the animators of the workshop had a message to promote makes the whole exercise the antithesis of having children learn to come to their own conclusions.
You appear to have gleaned a great deal more from this 4 minute video than what was actually presented. How can you expect to arrive at any reasonable conclusion with so little factual evidence? It appears you have filled in the gaps with your own personal conjecture and are again making judgments from your "superior" position.
At any rate, did you watch the entire 4 minutes? You claim you saw no conversations, but toward the end one of the speakers specifically walks his audience through an interactive deductive process. Granted, it isn't one I'd consider terribly logical, but it's there nonetheless.
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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
It is actually so faulty that it serves the opposite purpose. It says to children that because your grandparents didn't look like monkeys and because there are no references to them in the bible, that means there were no dinosaurs. And it reinforces this belief by having them sing a song about it so that it is embedded in their mind. This is how dogma is cultivated.
Again, you seem focused on the content and not the delivery.
This isn't a case of, "this is a fact because the Bible says so... end of story." Whether you agree with the reasons or not, or believe them accurate or not, what is being presented is a line of reasoning.
I'm not suggesting that the logic is good; just that it is presented in a way that illustrates rudimentary critical thinking skills.
And by the way, there were actually two different workshops presented in that video. The song that you refer to was from the second workshop and does not appear to deny the existence of dinosaurs (as would appear to be the claim of the first workshop) but suggests the possibility that unidentified creatures (specifically the behemoth) mentioned in the Bible might possibly be dinosaurs.
The words of the song:
Let's look at the Bible
Let's look in the Book of Job
Turn to Chapter 40
in verse 15, we're told
of a might creature
that Job must have known
in the jungle of the reeds and ferns
Behemoth made his home
Behemoth is a dinosaur
a dinosaur is he
"He eateth grass as an ox"
"His tail's like a cedar tree"
"His bones are strong as bars of iron"
"He's chief, in the ways of God"
Could Behemoth be a Dinosaur?
a mighty sauropod?
While whoever wrote the song had a bit of a declarative problem with "Behemoth is a dinosaur, a dinosaur is he", most of the lyrics posit a question. Questions tend to encourage critical thinking.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
... in order to teach children to think critically,
... What I'm having is issues with the way that children are taught deductive reasoning
Yet you go on to say...
quote:
ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
... Critical thinking *can* be enhanced )I have a hard time saying taught because while I can't say for sure that it is impossible, I am sceptical that it, like common sense, is not engrained in us) and this enhancement starts at a young age ...
So you have problems with how critical thinking skills are taught, but you admit that you're not sure you can teach them?
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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
If it sounds like that to you, that is because you want to hear it that way.
You know... it gets rather annoying when someone continually tries to tell me what I know, what I understand, what I think, and what I want. Shall I declare that you are an arrogant academician whose constant references to your education, your position... even your mother's education, are evidence that you believe yourself to be superior? That you craft questions with the intent of displaying your intellectual prowess and wowing readers into believing your superior standing?
quote:
ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
... This is an example of critical thinking in action where I present information but also analyse the data critically and add it might be flawed.
See... here you go again. Look at me! I'm good... I think critically, but I'm humble about it!
lol... Way to go to toot your own horn.
How about we just agree that neither of us is in an omniscient position to rule on each other's motives?
quote:
ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
I was taught religion in school, in church and by my mother. The few times I questioned faith in school, I got reprimanded, even once detention. The private catholic secondary school I attended called my parents in, accusing me of heresy. The only one who pushed me to think critically about faith was my mom.
And you turned out okay? You feel you are fully able to employ critical thinking and reasoning?
Then why do you not believe that others are perfectly capable?
Has it occurred to you that perhaps your upbringing actually facilitated your growth, rather than stifled it?
quote:
ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
quote:
Of course, if you are convinced that belief in the theory of evolution is a necessary criteria for having critical thinking skills, then I doubt you'd be open to the idea.
No I don't. I hope that my prior arguments in this post have cleared that matter up. If not, lets discuss it further.
Actually, much of what you've said throughout this thread supports the idea that you do think that way. Nevertheless, I don't find further discussion on it to be intriguing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Question marks are indeed useful, but they are also used as a clever way of concealing a statement. In legal terms, it is call this leading. But as I started out my post, the absence of a tone of voice can often lead us to misinterpret intentions. If I misinterpreted your intention, apologies.
Accepted.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
One thing I hope I never come across as is someone who discriminates based on a level of formal education...
Unfortunately, in my opinion you have already failed in this area.
< Message edited by TreasureKY -- 5/2/2010 8:48:45 AM >
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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 
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