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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 10:53:04 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I studied music at a fairly liberal institution, and can assure you that, although there have been some advances, it's still mostly a place for so-called technical music, both classical and jazz, and more emphasis on classical. Basically the older and whiter your style, the more funding there is going to be, the more jobs available, and on and on. This maybe is what John Cooper Clarke refers to as the 'chronic breath of the dead.'


This is a silly game. I've attended on performance scholarships, undergrad and grad, and teach at them.

I see everyday how you are mistaken.


What's silly is arguing that magically music at the academy doesn't possess these types of biases that I've mentioned.

The academy is unbalanced, through and through, just like the rest of society. That doesn't mean that one can't make a place in it, and feel some sense of personal accomplishment. Good for you; I'm too young still to give a fuck.

But to deny the biases that ostensibly benefit you demonstrates a lack of an intellectual conscience. I'm thinking precisely of Nietzsche's formulation in 'The Gay Science' (somewhere toward the beginning) which not surprisingly has a lot to say on this thread.


This is the same issue, by the way, with the endless reparations thread. People seem to need to believe that the system does not bias them in order to maintain a sense of personal agency and accomplishment. I'm saying that you can maintain that agency while still thinking critically about reality as it really is, for better and (usually?) for worse.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 10:53:24 PM   
TreasureKY


Posts: 3032
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Kentucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: brainiacsub


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

But the bigger issue hear is that once again your lack of "critical thinking" has allowed you to post sources that refute much of what you hope to prove.


Then you aren't using your critical thinking skills, domi.

You specifically said:  "There is no way you can possess the ability for critical thinking and then talk about religious beliefs and the impact of God on one's life. The two are not synonymous."

I gave you several links of people who were religious and were scientist, then I gave you a link to an article which says that (as of 1997), 40% of scientist believe in God.

I think this is sufficient to refute that a belief in God/religion is exclusive of the ability to think critically.

Firm


And I directly quoted the study in bold that contradicted your claim.

btw...the National Academy of Sciences in their poll of qualified scientists last year stated that 94% of scientists are declared atheists (I will try to find the poll data)


And how is pointing out a lesser percent contradicting?

The issue was dumiguy's statement, "There is no way you can possess the ability for critical thinking and then talk about religious beliefs and the impact of God on one's life. The two are not synonymous."

Firm merely pointed to evidence to the contrary.  He made no claim.

I wouldn't waste time looking for some poll... it doesn't matter what the percentage is.

(in reply to brainiacsub)
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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 10:57:05 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You claim it isn't part of the academy. It is. I see it everyday.

How much clearer can I be?

If it's cloudy where you live, that doesn't mean there is no sun.


In the whole U.S., how many 'department chairs' (or likewise) are in punk music or popular music? Compare that to classical music. (Then, there's this whole issue of what music is more 'important'.... which gets extremely difficult... how to weigh popularity? etc.)

It's insane to assume that the system, including the academy, including the music departments, is balanced. It isn't.

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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 10:59:10 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I studied music in the clubs in Chicago.

It was relevant there too.

They were fairly liberal

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:01:40 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		It's insane that, by your use, anything is balanced. What would "balance" look like? Truth is, you've an axe to grind, and you're going to grind it, no matter the reality.

That and that bias exists. Congratulations. You've uncovered the obvious. And guess what? Bias should exist. Without it, value would be flat.

This conversation reminds me of the fucked up parties around Harvard where everybody's trying to slip in the name of some book they hope no one else has read so that they can pretend to be smarter. Dumb, childish, pointless game then too.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 5/1/2010 11:03:05 PM >

(in reply to Silence8)
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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:06:03 PM   
brainiacsub


Posts: 1209
Joined: 11/11/2007
From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tigreetsa

I kind of agree with the OP about critical thinking and lack of it, but I disagree that the key to theology and spirituality is teaching logical deduction skills. In fact I think it's pointless.

[...snipped for brevity...]

The post was kinda long, so I don't expect that many will read it (it is a Saturday night), but for what it's worth, I thought it was really good.

(in reply to tigreetsa)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:06:08 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I studied music in the clubs in Chicago.

It was relevant there too.

They were fairly liberal

It's what I like about musicians.

We don't have these bullshit conversations. Instead, "You play, man?" "Cool." And then we play, all kinds of stuff, listening, learning, exploring, enjoying life and experiencing anew.

(in reply to Jeffff)
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RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:09:36 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
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quote:

This conversation reminds me of the fucked up parties around Harvard where everybody's trying to slip in the name of some book they hope no one else has read so that they can pretend to be smarter. Dumb, childish, pointless game then too.

Funny you mention that cause that's exactly what he essentially says here lol.
Off to bed..hope everyone has a good night.

It's hard to find obscure authors that are good... but when you do, you can lord it over your stupid friends for years and years...

< Message edited by Icarys -- 5/1/2010 11:11:36 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:11:41 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Thankfully it goes away when people are well read for real.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:11:52 PM   
domiguy


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Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY



And how is pointing out a lesser percent contradicting?

The issue was dumiguy's statement, "There is no way you can possess the ability for critical thinking and then talk about religious beliefs and the impact of God on one's life. The two are not synonymous."

Firm merely pointed to evidence to the contrary.  He made no claim.

I wouldn't waste time looking for some poll... it doesn't matter what the percentage is.



The scientists in the NAS only 7% believed in God.


Can either you or firm read? What in the fuck is your problem? This is the article that your idiot husband referenced Only he chose to use "the light" version....It was brief, easy to read and he thought it supported his position. It didn't. What a mope.

The article clearly states that more educated a scientist becomes the less they believe. Which does tend to support my initial position.

I understand you southerners view an education to be about as useful as teeth.

Treasure this is not for you. This is beyond your scope.

If I can make a suggestion, since we are talking about "critical thought." Virtually everyone out here is critical of the way that you and firm attempt to think. If it wasn't so funny it would be sad.



< Message edited by domiguy -- 5/1/2010 11:32:17 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:16:57 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It's insane that, by your use, anything is balanced. What would "balance" look like? Truth is, you've an axe to grind, and you're going to grind it, no matter the reality.

That and that bias exists. Congratulations. You've uncovered the obvious. And guess what? Bias should exist. Without it, value would be flat.

This conversation reminds me of the fucked up parties around Harvard where everybody's trying to slip in the name of some book they hope no one else has read so that they can pretend to be smarter. Dumb, childish, pointless game then too.


There are a few pretty strange arguments packed together here. You seem to be getting emotional? It's cool. I also possess emotions.

But, honestly... bias should exist? Um, no, at least according to the EEOC!

Oh, but, wait... since something is obvious, that makes it all right. This is obviously wrong; since it's obviously wrong, does that make it right?

Without bias, value would be flat? Not sure about this one.

Fucked up parties around Harvard? Name-dropping? Maybe a while back in the thread, and somewhat consciously, but not now. Obvious diversionary tactic. Again, though, it's obvious...

True be told, my axe to grind, if there were one, isn't with music departments. That doesn't change the fact of the argument. You mention circular reasoning while employing it yourself -- who's to say said axe isn't justified, just as justified as your smug self-satisfaction?





(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:19:20 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		You're too smart for me. I'm turning in so I can study up, maybe one day achieve your heights.

I know, not likely, but I can dream.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:22:02 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I studied music in the clubs in Chicago.

It was relevant there too.

They were fairly liberal

It's what I like about musicians.

We don't have these bullshit conversations. Instead, "You play, man?" "Cool." And then we play, all kinds of stuff, listening, learning, exploring, enjoying life and experiencing anew.


Notice, everyone, how the exact same argument works for drug use.

No bullshit conversations. Instead, 'You blow, man?' 'Cool.' And then they do all kinds of drugs, and don't have to worry about the complexities of reality.

The drug revolution of the 60s proceeded the failure of the social revolution. Here's the same story, in parable form.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:22:56 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		I wasn't aware that doing drugs took skill.

But I'll take your word for it.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:23:24 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You're too smart for me. I'm turning in so I can study up, maybe one day achieve your heights.

I know, not likely, but I can dream.


Nice.

Finish with a personal attack.

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:25:05 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		That's an attack?

I know you would never do so, though. I should learn from you.


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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:26:58 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I wasn't aware that doing drugs took skill.

But I'll take your word for it.


And suddenly skill is incorporated into the conversation?

And thinking doesn't take skill?

And everything that takes skill is valuable?

I should be able to criticize the academy -- I'm not the only one -- without that being perceived as a personal attack on one individual within it.

And you can be a member of the academy while still criticizing it.

You're the one making abusive argumentation, to everyone in this thread, not me.

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:28:04 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's an attack?

I know you would never do so, though. I should learn from you.




Never do what?

You're making the claim that I'll never achieve my dreams, or whatever, and I'm not supposed to take offense?

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:28:40 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		You compared playing music to doing drugs.

Obviously I wasn't able to follow your clever argument.

Sorry about that. I'll try harder.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming ... - 5/1/2010 11:30:13 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

You're making the claim that I'll never achieve my dreams, or whatever, and I'm not supposed to take offense?


You'll have to show me where I did that--I missed it.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 180
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