RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur

RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/3/2010 9:56:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife And the reason I haven't contributed is summed up above. This entire thread is an ego circle jerk. How pompous and arrogant can people be to decide their reasoning is superior and others lack critical thinking skills? It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne in Paris, France on April 23, 1910 Jesus! A perfect example of my point. Quoting Roosevelt to defend your own pomposity.

Silence8 -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/3/2010 10:02:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 I'm not sure the whole false dichotomy thing really works here. I feel as if religiously capitalized individuals would be a little too enthusiastic about this conclusion. I'd argue more radically that all the mystical, transcendental feelings of infinity and onward ([:D]) could also be expressed and experienced, to the same effect, within the coordinates of science. In other words, science, in addition to being science proper, can also, in a very separate capacity, be religion as well, for those who so desire. My critical point is that science itself should always be contested, precisely for not being science. Here is, somewhat abstractly, why I want to reject calling the matter a false dichotomy. There is a very essential structural difference that cannot be reduced, namely, that science is never really science, there is this sort of irreducible gap, whereas religion is always religion. yeh since science can be a religion it sort of throws a wrench into the works LOL After a day of reflection, sort of, between all the rest of it, I think my original point isn't strong enough. I think that science as religion would prove even stronger than religion (as religion), because it would have the full backing of science! All the transcendental feelings would be based on their actual source, reality, not some meta-reality in the clouds. So, yeah, the dichotomy is false in that all we need is science. Or, to play the Hegelian game, I think the synthesis of science and religion is... science!

rulemylife -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/3/2010 10:03:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thomponx Have you never met someone who lacked critical thinking skills? I don't judge people in that way. Some of the people who you would say lack critical thinking skills can surprise you with their abilities to "think outside the box".

Silence8 -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/3/2010 10:04:03 PM)
Yeah, but... pomposity? [:D] Can words be narcissistic?

Silence8 -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/3/2010 10:15:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 Yeah, but... pomposity? [:D] Can words be narcissistic? Pomposity stands in front of the mirror: 'Don't I look stunning? Yes, all eyes will be mine at the gala!'

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/3/2010 10:18:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 Or, to play the Hegelian game, I think the synthesis of science and religion is... science! Really? I thought it was Self Consciousness! Guess ... it all depends on the interpreter of the German ... and which of the interpreters interpretations you follow ... now isn't it? A lot like the bible and how each religion says it different ... funny how people do this ...

rulemylife -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/3/2010 10:20:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 Yeah, but... pomposity? [:D] Can words be narcissistic? Pomposity stands in front of the mirror: 'Don't I look stunning? Yes, all eyes will be mine at the gala!' I guess my critical thinking skills have eluded me. But since you made two posts about this you'll have to forgive my stupidity and elaborate.

Silence8 -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/3/2010 10:22:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 Or, to play the Hegelian game, I think the synthesis of science and religion is... science! Really? I thought it was Self Consciousness! Guess ... it all depends on the interpreter of the German ... and which of the interpreters interpretations you follow ... now isn't it? A lot like the bible and how each religion says it different ... funny how people do this ... This is my 'variation'. Hegel was devout.

Silence8 -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/3/2010 10:29:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 Yeah, but... pomposity? [:D] Can words be narcissistic? Pomposity stands in front of the mirror: 'Don't I look stunning? Yes, all eyes will be mine at the gala!' I guess my critical thinking skills have eluded me. But since you made two posts about this you'll have to forgive my stupidity and elaborate. Stupid joke. I'm personifying the word 'pomposity' as a narcissist. Or, similarly, you could say that the word 'pomposity' is itself somewhat pompous. Proceed on. Science is great! Yes, but religion is still special! But science is powerful and does stuff! But religion makes people feel good! But it's fucking up science! No, religion is supplementing science! Actually, they are the same thing! A lot of good scientists were religious! Religion is a sign of mental reasoning flaws! Not true! True, I have studies! No you don't! Do too! Do not! Do too!

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/3/2010 10:45:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: seekingOwnertoo quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 Or, to play the Hegelian game, I think the synthesis of science and religion is... science! Really? I thought it was Self Consciousness! Guess ... it all depends on the interpreter of the German ... and which of the interpreters interpretations you follow ... now isn't it? A lot like the bible and how each religion says it different ... funny how people do this ... This is my 'variation'. Hegel was devout. Thanks for sharing. I knew Hegel was a devout Lutheran. Myself ... I am more of a Kojeve/Hegel guy ... but it still comes as self consciousness there too. So I appreciate your clarification ... and of course ... you are entitled to your own "variation" ... what the heck ... everybody else does it! [;)]

seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/3/2010 11:19:21 PM)
On second thought - deleted

Dubbelganger -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/4/2010 1:37:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika quote: ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack Sorry, LA - I didn't mean to hijack your thread into a discussion of science. It's just one of those subjects I like to blather on about. (; I see no highjack! I see a direct discussion of the issues. As for theorists, yes, gotta love theorists ;-) - LA I agree with you about IB's post. That truly is an excellent way of categorizing the differing roles scientists fill. I myself was never much of a theorist - that was my boss's domain. I was more the experimenter/researcher, who designed equipment in order to test certain possibilites regarding tertiary oil recovery technology. After my experiments showed that the tech was viable, the project was scaled up to a pilot plant injection/recovery well system south of Baton Rouge. Very interesting stuff.

LadyAngelika -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/4/2010 4:48:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife And the reason I haven't contributed is summed up above. This entire thread is an ego circle jerk. How pompous and arrogant can people be to decide their reasoning is superior and others lack critical thinking skills? It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat. Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne in Paris, France on April 23, 1910 Or woman for that matter ;-) - LA

LadyAngelika -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/4/2010 4:55:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dubbelganger quote: ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika quote: ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack Sorry, LA - I didn't mean to hijack your thread into a discussion of science. It's just one of those subjects I like to blather on about. (; I see no highjack! I see a direct discussion of the issues. As for theorists, yes, gotta love theorists ;-) - LA I agree with you about IB's post. That truly is an excellent way of categorizing the differing roles scientists fill. I myself was never much of a theorist - that was my boss's domain. I was more the experimenter/researcher, who designed equipment in order to test certain possibilites regarding tertiary oil recovery technology. After my experiments showed that the tech was viable, the project was scaled up to a pilot plant injection/recovery well system south of Baton Rouge. Very interesting stuff. I'm better at analysing theories than writing them, though I have come up with minor ones, usually built around a model of sorts. I'm a huge believer of theory informing practice, which is one of the founding principle of the firm I work for. - LA

Musicmystery -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/4/2010 5:48:25 AM)
quote: The progress of science requires more than new data; it needs novel frameworks and contexts. And where do these fundamentally new views of the world arise? They are not simply discovered by pure observation; they require new modes of thought. And where can we find them, if old modes do not even include the right metaphors? The nature of true genius must lie in the elusive capacity to construct these new modes from apparent darkness. The basic chanciness and unpredictability of science must also reside in the inherent difficulty of such a task. -- Stephen Jay Gould in "False Premise, Good Science", in The Flamingo's Smile (1985) p. 138 I'm glad IB brought up this quote; it nicely complements the Gould article about science I linked to earlier. It also brings up back to Poe's "poets and mathematicians" as both needed components of true critical thinking--approaches from just the "poet" side or just the "mathematician" side will fall short. Likewise, this is why the religion/science divide in the Renaissance and, unfortunately, still today, is a false dichotomy. Created really as a compromise between Descartes and the Vatican, the model has been taken for truth since. As the OP notes, arguing from a narrow religious standpoint, e.g., no dinosaurs in the Bible, is limited to the point of irrational. LOTS of things that exist are not in the Bible either. And, this is only a subset of religious people--as Firm's point about religious scientists makes clear. But the "science" response often falls short of either science or critical thinking as well, merely buying into the either/or debate with arguments rooted to a narrow view of science. They, too, are repeating dogma, not thinking critically--as evidenced by the reliance on conclusions divorced from methodology, something that would make any "true" scientist cringe. As Gould notes above, thinking is broader than these narrow views from two artificial poles. Poe is right; we need the mathematicians, but we also need the poets--not for mere entertainment or reflection, but for true critical thinking.

Icarys -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/4/2010 6:17:35 AM)
quote: But the "science" response often falls short of either science or critical thinking as well, merely buying into the either/or debate with arguments rooted to a narrow view of science. They, too, are repeating dogma, not thinking critically--as evidenced by the reliance on conclusions divorced from methodology, something that would make any "true" scientist cringe. As Gould notes above, thinking is broader than these narrow views from two artificial poles. Poe is right; we need the mathematicians, but we also need the poets--not for mere entertainment or reflection, but for true critical thinking. I like this last part. It shows a balanced way of looking at life. You can't be perfectly balanced on every single issue but striving for it in life and in your ways of viewing life seem to me to be the most "level" way of going through it.

GotSteel -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/4/2010 7:36:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub I guess my problem is I do not see anything wrong with blind faith sometimes. It is not a bad thing if it helps someone be a better person and live their life in a way that shows kindness and respect to others. In fact, I would prefer to be that kind of person than a critical thinker. The problem with blind faith is that whether someone ends up a saint or a jihadist just depends on what they happen to have been indoctrinated with, in both cases the person involved believes they are doing what's good and right.

thompsonx -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/4/2010 8:11:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: thomponx Have you never met someone who lacked critical thinking skills? I don't judge people in that way. You have never posted anything that would lead me to believe that you would. I only asked if you had ever met someone who lacked critical thinking skills Some of the people who you would say lack critical thinking skills can surprise you with their abilities to "think outside the box". I think it is most likely that those who think "outside the box" are often the ones most deeply engaged in critical thinking and not the opposite.

belladevine -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/4/2010 8:18:43 AM)
What exactly is "a better person"? I think a better person can think. A thinking person can make good decisions. A person can not make a wise decision if they are in blind faith. A blind person has not seen the facts. I know very many good doctors with less than stellar personalities but they can save you from death much faster than a faith healing.

thompsonx -> RE: Critical Thinking & Logical Deduction Are Becoming Extinct Like The Dinosaur (5/4/2010 8:26:06 AM)
quote: I know very many good doctors with less than stellar personalities but they can save you from death much faster than a faith healing. I knew an MD when I was in school. He made the statement once, that he had never cured anyone of anything, that the best he could do was to hold their hand till they decided to get well or die. His feeling was that broken legs and heart valve replacement was nothing more than maintainence that any competant mechanic could manage. I thought it was an interesting point of view coming from an MD who had been in the business for some 40 odd years.

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