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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 11:53:37 PM   
Silence8


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Don't you think there's exaggeration in all kinds of romance?

Let me write romantically sometimes! What may seem as rigid rhetoric actually possesses the elements of a formal dance...

(in reply to Silence8)
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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/1/2010 11:56:22 PM   
myotherself


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From: The cold bit of the UK
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fuck it, I need more coffee.

Someone call me when we have a translation

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There's nowt so queer as folk


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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:09:02 AM   
WyldHrt


Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

fuck it, I need more coffee.
Someone call me when we have a translation

This. LOL


_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:14:52 AM   
Silence8


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Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

fuck it, I need more coffee.
Someone call me when we have a translation

This. LOL



This. Explains itself.

(in reply to WyldHrt)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:31:03 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

fuck it, I need more coffee.
Someone call me when we have a translation

This. LOL



This. Explains itself.


Exactly - Wyld and I have given a coherent, understandable exchange of ideas.

I have two degrees and a Master's, I am a professional published writer and I STILL have no idea what you're getting at!

If you are getting more than one person telling you that they have no clue what you're trying to say, then you are saying it wrong. It may not be the content that's wrong, but the presentation.

Go back, edit, clarify and then maybe you'll get a conversation going.



< Message edited by myotherself -- 5/2/2010 12:33:31 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:34:22 AM   
jbcurious


Posts: 717
Joined: 3/13/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious

Why would marriage to a "normal" person and marriage to a Sadist change the fact that somtimes life gets in the way of doing the yummy things we like doing to each other...in the form of stress, kids, work responsibility ect.

You're initial post doesn't address marriage, just the sexual act... So I'm failing to see what point you're trying to make.


I'm considering now whether the 'external fantasy' phenomenon that I've discussed occurs most often in long-term 'normal' relationships.

I think it does.

Also, I suspect it occurs when many men see prostitutes.

Maybe I've overstated the difference in the role of fantasy for normal versus sadomasochistic sex. But maybe not. It's not an easy topic -- that's why the language is apparently somewhat complicated. It's unavoidable.



I have no problem comprehending the words you use...but your attempt to sound profound and phylisophical has just come across as vague. Additional posts have made things clearer...and I still think your stereotypical ideas of vanilla sex being nothing more than objectification and mutual masterbation to be way off base and very narrow minded.


'masterbation': Does that support my claim, or oppose it?

I don't know... I like to exaggerate the effect to get people thinking. That's the thing... if you try being really accurate, you come off as being really vague. If you try being really specific, you come across as being 'narrow minded' or simplistic or otherwise.

You sadist... cutting me with both sides of the blade!


I do find it amusing, when in a debate, that a person who has no intelligent response grasps at things like a spelling mistake or typo... While you're sitting with your computer and nice big screen, I'm on a cell phone with a 2 inch keyboard doing one finger typing with a tiny pointy stick... I believe most of my posts are quite error free considering. I do know that I'm always clear in the view or subject matter I wish to express.

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I have an explosive personality...


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RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:37:47 AM   
Silence8


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Hey, there was a smiley face after it. Lighten up; it's not as if your new post is being shit on.

Not to mention, who's to say it wasn't a 'Freudian slip'? C'mon, it's a psychology thread! It... was... irresistible...

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:45:24 AM   
WyldHrt


Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

This. Explains itself.

I rather thought it did. Thanks for the endorsement.
BTW, underestimating the intelligence or education of your fellow posters isn't really a good idea.
Just sayin'


_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:45:39 AM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

fuck it, I need more coffee.
Someone call me when we have a translation

This. LOL



This. Explains itself.


Exactly - Wyld and I have given a coherent, understandable exchange of ideas.

I have two degrees and a Master's, I am a professional published writer and I STILL have no idea what you're getting at!

If you are getting more than one person telling you that they have no clue what you're trying to say, then you are saying it wrong. It may not be the content that's wrong, but the presentation.

Go back, edit, clarify and then maybe you'll get a conversation going.




When your idea is simple, and dismissive, it's simple to communicate.

When you're dealing with something as crazy-complicated as human sexual psychology, it's unavoidable that the language itself gets complex.

It's easy to say that I'm being pretentious or difficult, just like it's easy to say that, for instance, anyone can write poetry. Only when you go and try it yourself do you realize that there's often no avoiding the things you originally despised.

Due to some actual, non knee-jerk comments, I have begun making some revisions.

By the way, this is only the tip of the iceberg for complexity in theoretical writing.

I am sure many CM viewers can handle (and enjoy) a great deal of complexity.

(in reply to myotherself)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:46:54 AM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

This. Explains itself.

I rather thought it did. Thanks for the endorsement.
BTW, underestimating the intelligence or education of your fellow posters isn't really a good idea.
Just sayin'



Again, this cuts both ways.

(in reply to WyldHrt)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 1:01:01 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline
Sigh...

well at least you're getting the idea that you need to clarify and simplify for the audience on this site. Even if it took a clue-by-four to get you there.


Carry on...

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk


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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 1:04:47 AM   
jbcurious


Posts: 717
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Hey, there was a smiley face after it. Lighten up; it's not as if your new post is being shit on.

Not to mention, who's to say it wasn't a 'Freudian slip'? C'mon, it's a psychology thread! It... was... irresistible...


Comments like that are fine when the post is also addressed...when used as a means of deflection...it just comes off like a cheap shot.

_____________________________

'Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.'


I have an explosive personality...


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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 1:11:53 AM   
pegbundy


Posts: 565
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

quote:

fuck it, I need more coffee.
Someone call me when we have a translation

This. LOL



This. Explains itself.


Exactly - Wyld and I have given a coherent, understandable exchange of ideas.

I have two degrees and a Master's, I am a professional published writer and I STILL have no idea what you're getting at!

If you are getting more than one person telling you that they have no clue what you're trying to say, then you are saying it wrong. It may not be the content that's wrong, but the presentation.

Go back, edit, clarify and then maybe you'll get a conversation going.




When your idea is simple, and dismissive, it's simple to communicate.

When you're dealing with something as crazy-complicated as human sexual psychology, it's unavoidable that the language itself gets complex.

It's easy to say that I'm being pretentious or difficult, just like it's easy to say that, for instance, anyone can write poetry. Only when you go and try it yourself do you realize that there's often no avoiding the things you originally despised.

Due to some actual, non knee-jerk comments, I have begun making some revisions.

By the way, this is only the tip of the iceberg for complexity in theoretical writing.

I am sure many CM viewers can handle (and enjoy) a great deal of complexity.


I revel in complexity. I eat it up. I do require it be served with a heaping helping of clarity.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 1:17:01 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pompeii

As for the whimpering and tears ... I too don't have first-hand sadistic experience as I care too much for the recipient ... yet ... I wonder ... I wonder if the electric surge I feel in my loins when I twist a willing sub's nipples ... which evokes such a wondrous wince out of her ... or the spelling out of Shakespearean prose on her clit which elicits a similarly fantastic shudder throughout her body ... I wonder if that control ... that control of a person's strong feelings ... I wonder if that desire and enjoyment of control of their pain and pleasure ... is the initial embodiment of a slight dose of sub-clinical sadism.

I wonder ...

pompeii . . . I have always respected the sincerity of your posts. I reply in the same spirit. By definition, pretty much anyone that owns and uses a whip, cane and etc, is a sexual sadist to some minor degree. Even in the mildest and most loving BDSM acts, if you use rope, handcuffs, manacles or in anyway inflict suffering, even through bondage, you are experiencing sexual sadism. However, on the same note, just like cooking, just because you have the ability to cook one gourmet meal, it doesn't make you a chef.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 1:22:28 AM   
Silence8


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Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline
Here's an attempt at a rewrite that certainly will disappoint:



Sexual sadistic objectification, I think, represents a fundamental reversal of the standard objectification of the sexual partner. This standard objectification, in its modern form, entails using the sexual partner as a purely physical device from which to dissociate while mentally projecting one's living fantasies, whether of other women, men, or something else altogether. In this sense, sex merely extends masturbation from a solo act to a mutually solipsistic activity for two or more disconnected partners. (In modern times, this disconnection is then reinstantiated in the distance of the condom's thickness.) You masturbate inside of him or her, and this you call sex.

The objectification enacted by the sadist occurs much more ambiguously. In one sense, the sadist's joy demands that only he or she can resolve the tension he or she imposes. One might argue, then, that this form of objectification exceeds that of the standard sexual mode, that is, if we immediately relate objectification to one's position in relative power structures. We can also argue whether the sadist is unique in consciously addressing his or her partner as an object. Yet we miss here the crucial point, namely, that the sadist quite essentially produces his partner's failure as an object. That is to say, straightforwardly, that the sadist establishes his or her partner as an impossible object, or, rather, as not an object at all. In the case of heterosexual sadistic men, we arrive at what appears a rather unlikely and unexpected solution, the sadistic male suddenly representing an almost uncanny feminism where one would immediately expect the opposite, the most derivative misogyny.

What is more, the state of mind that the sadist attempts to manifest in the opposite sexual partner more often than not represents an engagement of his or her own state of mind displaced over time. So whereas the partner in the standard sexual mode serves as a sort of empty symbolic conduit through which to pursue strictly external fantasy coordinates, (just as money serves as an empty conduit through which to activate labor value), the submissive partner in the sadomasochistic mode becomes the endpoint itself, the ultimate object Herself, that is to say, the mutual simultaneous means and ends for engaging the humanity of one's experience in its extremities, in the emotional force of impossibly boundless human will facing impossible predicament.

The preceding analysis neglects to demonstrate that sadistic and standard objectification potentially represent two sides of the same coin, that is, two polarized effects of the same market society. We could proceed in arguing that the sadist's prototypical idea of the 'sex slave' is the exact opposite of an arguably more normative form, the prostitute, the other side of the same problem of value's representation. The sex slave is privately owned forever, while the prostitute is publicly for sale but just for the moment.

We see also that the sexual slave and the traditional wife bear a certain resemblance, the same permanence, as if the latter is simply a 'domesticated' form of the former.

Likewise, the prostitute exists as a gross extension of a bachelors' more notorious escapades, replacing women weekend after weekend. Again, the analogy with material goods holds up -- until you're ready to buy, it's best to rent.




< Message edited by Silence8 -- 5/2/2010 1:28:21 AM >

(in reply to jbcurious)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 1:24:57 AM   
Silence8


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Joined: 11/2/2009
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See the rewrite. I think it's somewhat clearer.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 1:32:03 AM   
jbcurious


Posts: 717
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompeii

As for the whimpering and tears ... I too don't have first-hand sadistic experience as I care too much for the recipient ... yet ... I wonder ... I wonder if the electric surge I feel in my loins when I twist a willing sub's nipples ... which evokes such a wondrous wince out of her ... or the spelling out of Shakespearean prose on her clit which elicits a similarly fantastic shudder throughout her body ... I wonder if that control ... that control of a person's strong feelings ... I wonder if that desire and enjoyment of control of their pain and pleasure ... is the initial embodiment of a slight dose of sub-clinical sadism.

I wonder ...

pompeii . . . I have always respected the sincerity of your posts. I reply in the same spirit. By definition, pretty much anyone that owns and uses a whip, cane and etc, is a sexual sadist to some minor degree. Even in the mildest and most loving BDSM acts, if you use rope, handcuffs, manacles or in anyway inflict suffering, even through bondage, you are experiencing sexual sadism. However, on the same note, just like cooking, just because you have the ability to cook one gourmet meal, it doesn't make you a chef.



...and some of us girls prefer the weekend bbq guy to the gourmet chef...

Except in your case RS... I'm delighted at being able to amuse you.

_____________________________

'Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.'


I have an explosive personality...


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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 2:14:41 AM   
pegbundy


Posts: 565
Joined: 4/3/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

See the rewrite. I think it's somewhat clearer.


It is, actually. At least it is to me. I can see clearly the points where I disagree with you. Specifically, the same point jbcurious took issue with. I have never, ever had disconnected sex with a person. I've been with people whose names I can't even recall, but for that time we were together there was a real human connection. I've also been in a relationship which lasted better than 2 decades, and never had disconnected sex with him either. I wonder if that whole masturbating inside your partner thing is actually a phenomenon unique to you, or at least more common in the male of the species.

I will concede that there is a different level of connectedness when sadism is involved. That's the extent of what I can offer on the subject as I cannot speak from the mindset of the sadist.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 3:18:44 AM   
myotherself


Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
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The rewrite is somewhat clearer, thank you.

However I'm not convinced by the argument. Firstly, there's the assumption that objectification is somehow part and parcel of the sadomasochistic experience. For purely 'no strings play', perhaps that is the case. For some relationships, perhaps that is the case. In my experience (several S&M relationships) this is absolutely NOT the case. For my sadomasochist friends, this is also not the case. In fact, I would argue the opposite.

Here's an example. I once had a conversation with a sadistic partner. We'd had a pretty heavy session, and I was bruised from neck to knees. This is a potted version of the conversation:

Me: "why do you enjoy beating me, bruising me and making me cry and beg?"
Him: "because it gets me hard"
Me: "ok, but does that mean you don't love me?"
Him: "quite the opposite - I only do it because I love you. I know you enjoy this, I know you are enduring serious pain for me, and that makes me love you more"
Me: "so what are you thinking about while you're doing this?"
Him: "fucking you"
Me: "and what are you thinking about while you're fucking me?"
Him: "how much I love you"


So...no objectification, disconnect or detachment there!

I'd also be interested in the data behind the 'nilla sexual objectification scenario. Although this may be a female thing, I've never had sex with a man and imagined another. I've been with him, thinking about him, even if it was a short-term relationship or a friends-with-benefits arrangement.



_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 5:02:56 AM   
reynardfox


Posts: 417
Joined: 9/8/2009
Status: offline
Boy, you need to make someone squeal more and think less.
The only reading you need to do is to analyse the damp patches on someone's panties, right before you rip them off.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 40
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