Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: The Psychology of the Sadist


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: The Psychology of the Sadist Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:22:13 PM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I'd say narcissism is precisely the property that is preventing posters from even approaching the heart of this issue, whether they object from a bdsm or a more normal perspective.


And I'd say your arrogance is preventing you from recognizing you never had any intention of learning from those who have graciously replied to your post. Too bad. There are some fabulous responses. The heart of the issue is not our narcissism, but your grand posturing, hiding behind big words, muddy "perspectives" and snooty attitude.

Time to put up or shut up, Silence.

If you can bring yourself to communicate, ask your question. Clearly. Humbly. Don't provide the answer you're looking for. Read the responses you get. Then think.

Unless, of course, you were looking for a fight all along, under the pretense of "intellectual" discourse.

January



_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:26:46 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: January

quote:

I'd say narcissism is precisely the property that is preventing posters from even approaching the heart of this issue, whether they object from a bdsm or a more normal perspective.


And I'd say your arrogance is preventing you from recognizing you never had any intention of learning from those who have graciously replied to your post. Too bad. There are some fabulous responses. The heart of the issue is not our narcissism, but your grand posturing, hiding behind big words, muddy "perspectives" and snooty attitude.

Time to put up or shut up, Silence.

If you can bring yourself to communicate, ask your question. Clearly. Humbly. Don't provide the answer you're looking for. Read the responses you get. Then think.

Unless, of course, you were looking for a fight all along, under the pretense of "intellectual" discourse.

January




If you actually thread this thread through and through -- nevermind.

I went back and made all kinds of revisions to the original post. It's on, I think, the second or third page of the thread.

Based on a lot of good suggestions.

I'm hoping people can start addressing the topic, though, rather than attacking me because they don't like the implications of reality as I see it.

(in reply to January)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:33:22 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
Also, I seem to see a lot of married couples that stay together despite being totally unhappy.


Marriage, the institution was designed to create a stable home for raising children and economic survival. Personal happiness was not even considered. Ancient Greeks married but believed there could be no true love between men and women, for that they turned to lovers of the same sex.

In the Middle Ages, it was unusual to live past 35, today we frequently marry in late 20's or our 30's and have our first child at age 35 or later. We demand a great deal more out of marriage than people before did. If the expectations were still the same; stable home, shared economics, and it was understood you went elsewhere for love and friendship then marriage would have a higher rate of success

We've raised the ante to an unheard of amount of expectation. The fact that half of marriages today fulfill those high level of expectations is something to celebrate not denigrate.

Which by and by still has nothing to do with what you've been saying, which is that people aren't connected to their partners but instead keep themselves safe by objectifying them.

It's obvious you have enormous scars left from your family of origin breakup. But that's your issue. Just because you need to do so doesn't mean the rest of us do. Some of us get help with our issues instead. I hope you eventually will before it's too late.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:34:43 PM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah,

But I don't go back and read revisions. It's the online version of "you only get one chance to make a first impression".

By the way, your later posts were still pretentious and long-winded. Are you really looking for answers, or are you trying to browbeat CM into accepting your view about sadism? (Assuming anyone could actually figure out what your view was.)

January



_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:37:55 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline 		It seems the big problems we're having are:

1) Sadism does not necessarily equal objectification. But I hope you can agree it's often a part. A big one.

2) So-called 'normal' sex does not necessarily entail objectification. I still think that it possesses this tendency a strong tendency.

I still think the idea of a 'failed object' is pretty cool. And I'm beginning to see how sadomasochism does not conflict with feminism, equality, and so forth, although clearly in many individuals S/M and chauvinism coincide.

The 'twist' of the argument is that I think that anonymous sex -- or the old 'purely physical' relationship -- might *tend* to represent a more insidious form of chauvinism.

All and all I'm trying to cast S/M in a more positive light while recognizing that, potentially, the social things that promote this practice (yeah, I'm not buying the innate argument, for this or for much else) are pretty objectively negative, things like abusive bureaucracies, education that equates with obedience training and not critical thinking, endless patterns of violence, systemic exploitation of both workers and intellectuals, and onward.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 12:48:24 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
Also, I seem to see a lot of married couples that stay together despite being totally unhappy.


Marriage, the institution was designed to create a stable home for raising children and economic survival. Personal happiness was not even considered. Ancient Greeks married but believed there could be no true love between men and women, for that they turned to lovers of the same sex.

In the Middle Ages, it was unusual to live past 35, today we frequently marry in late 20's or our 30's and have our first child at age 35 or later. We demand a great deal more out of marriage than people before did. If the expectations were still the same; stable home, shared economics, and it was understood you went elsewhere for love and friendship then marriage would have a higher rate of success

We've raised the ante to an unheard of amount of expectation. The fact that half of marriages today fulfill those high level of expectations is something to celebrate not denigrate.

Which by and by still has nothing to do with what you've been saying, which is that people aren't connected to their partners but instead keep themselves safe by objectifying them.

It's obvious you have enormous scars left from your family of origin breakup. But that's your issue. Just because you need to do so doesn't mean the rest of us do. Some of us get help with our issues instead. I hope you eventually will before it's too late.



This was a good post until it also degraded into curious personal attack.

I'm not convinced, personally, that marriage needs to be forever. In a reflexive way, the only problem with 'broken marriages' (and the children involved) is fact that our society enjoys considering them as broken.

Just as you enjoy implying that I come from broken circumstances. I wish! -- then I would have the proper perspective from which to view objectively a broken society that denies its own fissures.

Americans can't even admit global warming. I can't expect them to admit the subtleties of the subconscious.

Subconscious denial, and denial of the subconscious, 'til death do us part.

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 5/2/2010 12:56:34 PM >

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 1:11:46 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline 		Again, it's naive to think that the mental images people project of themselves are in fact accurate. The whole (devastating) point of psychology is precisely that we cannot rely on the stories we tell ourselves about themselves.

For that reason, the best psychological theory by its very nature is difficult to accept. People will be trying to refute Freud until the end of time.

To repeat Schopenhauer's famous idea, we should remember that all truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

I wonder if, with psychological theory, and matters of economics, truth can be violently opposed as falsity while simultaneously being accepted as self-evidently true, reestablishing the inconsistency that psychology consistently establishes.

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 5/2/2010 1:12:48 PM >

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 1:35:03 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline 		Yet another thing occurred to me.

By relating sex to masturbation, it's assumed that I'm denigrating sex. Yet the more important question remains -- why is masturbation denigrated?

Look at the relationship in 'American Beauty'. Ostensibly a fairly ordinary relationship, right? So many people relate to the movie, I think, because it takes the ordinary out of its image and into actuality, the reality that we deny the world when in public or presenting ourselves on a public message board.

It all relates back, of course, to the fact, that Freud and others emphasize, that society is built precisely as a mechanism to control and subvert individuality. In America, the rhetoric is the opposite, individualism this and that, but the reality is an attack on individualism to the 'T'.

So when people laugh at the idea of masturbation, they're laughing at the image of someone who presumably cannot 'get a girl [or guy]'. Language is important; notice how 'get' implies a seizing gesture. In other words, someone appears ridiculous to us if they cannot find in society at any given moment a, uh, 'depository' for their sexual desires.

Again, the completely undeniable omnipresence of competition (over sexual mates) amounts to objectification -- whether you're able to admit it or not.

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 5/2/2010 1:36:09 PM >

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 2:05:30 PM   
Daddysredhead


Posts: 23574
Joined: 11/6/2005
From: Northern (yet still part of the South) Virginia
Status: offline 		I like my "normal" sex to be sadistic as fuck (pardon the pun).  I am a switch, and I am, by my own definition, an honest to goodness "sado-masochist."  I totally get off on pain, to the point where my Master has had to stop things because He felt I was getting way too ahead of myself.  I am also a sadist.  When I'm topping the right person, I can completely lose myself in the feeling of wanting to hurt that person for my own personal enjoyment, knowing that s/he is allowing this particular activity for my enjoyment.

Whatever the heck was said in the 1000's of words you put forward on the first page, I have no idea.  My sexual psychology is just this:  I like the "foreplay" to be wicked, and the "during" to be evil, and the "ending" to be warm and fuzzy.

Signed,
TheRedhead

_____________________________

Founding Member, Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's

Do not challenge me to a battle of wits & come to fight unarmed.

Are you really that stupid? ~ Bless your heart

13th doughnut


(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 6:26:24 PM   
Whiplashsmile4


Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline 		In a new study out today, it's reported that 9 out 10 Vulcans have been known to drink heavy after being subjected to prolonged periods of faulty human logic and psycho-babble.

_____________________________

Жизнь ума ебет.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzJI4Palq0

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 8:29:34 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

In a new study out today, it's reported that 9 out 10 Vulcans have been known to drink heavy after being subjected to prolonged periods of faulty human logic and psycho-babble.


In an even newer study, 9 out of 10 one-sentence posters are not happy with their slave-like 9 to 5 existence, taking out their aggression on anyone who might potentially still possess human traits like introspection and creativity.

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 9:17:42 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Your post didn't resonate with me at all in my experiences as a sadist or as a masochist. My first D/s relationship started when I was 20 and lasted for 5 years, and I haven't had any vanilla relationships since. So, I can't really speak to how vanilla relationships would go, but the couple that I *did* have were nothing like what you describe.

I don't tend to feel objectified by sex or by masochism, and I don't objectify other people during sex or sadism. I've only really experienced objectification in the context of art - I feel objectified in a good way by being a model for a photo shoot, or by having body art done on me. I'm just a canvas, or the "subject," rather than them focusing on me as a person for that period of time. It's pretty neat, actually. I've done casual play, but only with people I know and had developed a friendship with first, usually for months beforehand. I'm not at all interested in casual sex.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 9:26:55 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
In an even newer study, 9 out of 10 one-sentence posters are not happy with their slave-like 9 to 5 existence, taking out their aggression on anyone who might potentially still possess human traits like introspection and creativity.
OK, speaking strictly and solely from my own perspective. Perhaps the reason I cannot identify with your post is that it never occurred to me to objectify women. Nor does my wife objectify me. We kind of like each other as people and are happier with the people than generic "guy" or "girl". So the whole "objectification" thing just isn't working for me.

Nor can I really get behind the whole "marriage" sucks bit since mine's been going for 15 years and largely has been happier year over year.

Insofar as sex slaves being privately owned forever, I've read an awful lot here on collarme that didn't make it the 6 month mark. And honestly, the ones I do read seem to want more than to fuck. In my head, I equate the term "sex slave" with "kinky girlfriend". So what you're really saying with that part is "in exchange for some relationship bits, you can have some kinky sex or you can pay money for it instead." Is that news?

I may be the wrong guy for this post because so many of your fundamental propositions are just not true either in my life or within my circle of friends.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 10:13:06 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8
In an even newer study, 9 out of 10 one-sentence posters are not happy with their slave-like 9 to 5 existence, taking out their aggression on anyone who might potentially still possess human traits like introspection and creativity.
OK, speaking strictly and solely from my own perspective. Perhaps the reason I cannot identify with your post is that it never occurred to me to objectify women. Nor does my wife objectify me. We kind of like each other as people and are happier with the people than generic "guy" or "girl". So the whole "objectification" thing just isn't working for me.

Nor can I really get behind the whole "marriage" sucks bit since mine's been going for 15 years and largely has been happier year over year.

Insofar as sex slaves being privately owned forever, I've read an awful lot here on collarme that didn't make it the 6 month mark. And honestly, the ones I do read seem to want more than to fuck. In my head, I equate the term "sex slave" with "kinky girlfriend". So what you're really saying with that part is "in exchange for some relationship bits, you can have some kinky sex or you can pay money for it instead." Is that news?

I may be the wrong guy for this post because so many of your fundamental propositions are just not true either in my life or within my circle of friends.


I am talking more about the idea of a sex slave, not the domesticated quasi-forms that BDSM people instantiate. You don't have a real 'sex slave', nor I hope do any other posters, due if nothing else to legal reasons. Still, I think that ideas have a way of preceding reality, and have a reality of their own.

I'm struck with what amounts to a disconnect -- on one hand, no one is willing to admit to objectifying anyone else; on the other hand, objectification, to my understanding, is a major issue that progressives, feminists, and likewise rally against. Are you implying they are rallying against nothing at all, or are in some way misguided?

Also, note that pornographic models are quite literally objectified, that is, made into pornographic videos, photos, and so forth. Any individual watching these types of media -- millions presumably -- are quite actively supporting this objectification. Hence we have arguments against pornography. These views are nothing new, you must know.

How, then, can we bridge this disconnect and get at the heart of the matter?

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 10:19:49 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline 		Notice how just about everyone who has responded (in a substantial way) has attested to a positive sex life.

Yet we all know this cannot be representative, even if -- and this allows a lot -- it is true.

Just the other day I was in a coffee shop and your standard distressed couple came in, sat behind me, said a few strained things to each other between long bouts of silence, ate their meal, and quickly left.

Yes, we can go on and on about one sample means nothing. But this seems to happen a lot.

Isn't there the ultimate taboo, the whole calling out another person's name while having sex?

How many marriages feature the love affair? Half? More?

Something's missing.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 10:26:15 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		It's an interesting post and topic albeit a bit wordy and hard to really comprehend fully, and a similar to a conversation (I think) that I had recently with a partner who is most definitely a sadist. While in the act I think he does in fact actively seek to objectify, to view it as an art per se and the receiving body a canvas, at the same time, his diligence to detailed observation to every personal, unique reaction for possible trouble and avenues to pursue to further his "art", and his nuturing responses to those reactions would defy that same theory of objectification wouldn't it? And while I do agree that in my case at least I attempt to not so much be me but be what he would like me to be at that moment, isn't it really still somewhat about me when I get personal satisfaction from doing that? Is there ever really such as thing as an empty vessel when personal reactions/responses come into play that are unique? I guess the point I'm making is, I view the entire exchange as a continuum rather than being all of any one thing or another and in the end the "object" or vessle feels nutured, cared for and fulfilled does it really matter what the intent is? After all, the seeming indifference and objectification in and of itself can be incredibly stimulating. I do agree it is two sides of the same coin...but if it works, it does, right?

While at one point in my journey I might have been troubled with this concept, in the end I discovered that intense vulnerability leads to emotional intimacy and thus the majority of the seeming objectification never came to light other than in the moment, which only turned me on...no harm, no foul. :P

OP and the subsequent posts: I skip any of the "normal" relationship or comparison terms to "vanilla" or "marriage" because personally I've always found that line of comparison to be just self-serving bs and not constructive.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 10:29:45 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

Your post didn't resonate with me at all in my experiences as a sadist or as a masochist. My first D/s relationship started when I was 20 and lasted for 5 years, and I haven't had any vanilla relationships since. So, I can't really speak to how vanilla relationships would go, but the couple that I *did* have were nothing like what you describe.

I don't tend to feel objectified by sex or by masochism, and I don't objectify other people during sex or sadism. I've only really experienced objectification in the context of art - I feel objectified in a good way by being a model for a photo shoot, or by having body art done on me. I'm just a canvas, or the "subject," rather than them focusing on me as a person for that period of time. It's pretty neat, actually. I've done casual play, but only with people I know and had developed a friendship with first, usually for months beforehand. I'm not at all interested in casual sex.


Part of the point of my original post was that objectification, to put the matter really crudely, can be both good and bad.

Also, I don't believe an individual has to know he is objectifying or being objectified for it to occur.

Generally, though, immobilization tends to imply objectification. Sensory deprivation, speech and eye contact restrictions, bondage, imprisonment, even menial tasks all can (and perhaps, more strongly, usually do) imply some degree of objectification. The extreme examples include people who fantasize about being turned into an object, like -- you see posts on this forum pretty frequently -- a doll, rubber 'gimp', chair, footrest, table, ashtray, toilet, hood ornament, coat rack, and on and on.

The intermediary between object and human, if you will, would in many cases be an animal, which also appears pretty commonly.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 10:32:54 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline 		Oh right, a doormat!

How many profiles specifically state I am not a doormat? Is this not an obvious indication that these individuals are being approached precisely by individuals who, whether they know it or not, are seeking precisely that?

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 10:42:42 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

It's an interesting post and topic albeit a bit wordy and hard to really comprehend fully, and a similar to a conversation (I think) that I had recently with a partner who is most definitely a sadist. While in the act I think he does in fact actively seek to objectify, to view it as an art per se and the receiving body a canvas, at the same time, his diligence to detailed observation to every personal, unique reaction for possible trouble and avenues to pursue to further his "art", and his nuturing responses to those reactions would defy that same theory of objectification wouldn't it? And while I do agree that in my case at least I attempt to not so much be me but be what he would like me to be at that moment, isn't it really still somewhat about me when I get personal satisfaction from doing that? Is there ever really such as thing as an empty vessel when personal reactions/responses come into play that are unique?

I think on some level the sadist in this capacity is playing a sort of game that he does not want to win.

On some level, the submissive always wins, always reasserts his or her subjectivity.

On another level, the game is to give the submissive an opportunity to conquer his or her almost objective bodily demands -- feelings of pain, discomfort, boredom, etc. -- by willing mentally her submission. But that mental will is to consent or endure some objective demand. You see how the terms flip back and forth.

quote:


While at one point in my journey I might have been troubled with this concept, in the end I discovered that intense vulnerability leads to emotional intimacy and thus the majority of the seeming objectification never came to light other than in the moment, which only turned me on...no harm, no foul. :P

OP and the subsequent posts: I skip any of the "normal" relationship or comparison terms to "vanilla" or "marriage" because personally I've always found that line of comparison to be just self-serving bs and not constructive.


I can definitely relate with this.

The idea of control, dominance, submission, and so forth being liberating conflicts with mainstream ideology, individualism, self-determination, and all that claptrap.

The reality of the situation, as I see it, always involves these sort of pendulum swings.

< Message edited by Silence8 -- 5/2/2010 10:43:11 PM >

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: The Psychology of the Sadist - 5/2/2010 11:41:19 PM   
jbcurious


Posts: 717
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		You seem to have a difficult time with reality vs. fantasy and your recent addition of chauvinism into the mix is off as well... Your ideas are so old fashioned and out dated.

In our day to day lives men and women objectify people around them... I enjoy a little fantasy when the hot UPS guy comes strolling in and I'm sure many of us experience little moments like this.

It is not exclusive to men and it doesn't carry over into our personal relationships.

Regarding sex only relationships... I have had several men in my life that were sex only. I don't see any objectification or chauvinism or detachment in this sort of relationship...rather a mutual benefit to 2 people who are focused on giving and receiving pleasure to one another.

Basicly I don't see any merit to your attempt to revive some very old fashioned and out dated ideas. When you get past all your psycobabble all it seems like you're saying is that women are victims of mens objectification whether in a S/m situation or in the vanilla world...assigning gender roles that don't apply.

_____________________________

'Smile... it's the second best thing to do with your lips.'


I have an explosive personality...


(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 80
Page:   <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: The Psychology of the Sadist Page: <<   < prev  2 3 [4] 5 6   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109