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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/10/2010 10:22:47 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

So you had a negative experience. Younger, full of attitude, you ran into some victim mentality people (sure, AA has them, just as CM has them), and staked out your posture.

What do you want from me?

Facing a difficult problem and solving it with the help of others who get it is not such a horrible thing. Nor is making friends and enjoying life with such people.

So you're stuck on the "higher power" thing. Guess what? Lots of people are. Don't worry about it.

Personally? I think a little humility here and there is a useful reminder.

But from there to your righteous jihad is a problem you own, not anyone else, then or now.


Hey, I told you before whatever works for you is fine with me.

I would hardly call what I said a "righteous jihad".

But by saying that you have somewhat proven my point of the cultist atmosphere of AA.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/10/2010 10:26:30 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

]I am fairly certain most of the tears are genuine, as is the support. You say you do not have an alcohol problem and thats a good thing, but there are many others who do and AA works for them. For heavens sake..if they are driven to tears, let them cry without criticism.

As far as "it really wasn't their fault"...one of the steps in working a successful program is accepting responsibility. Some accept responsibility and some do not.



I guess that's my main question.

How do you accept responsibility while simultaneously saying you are not in control?



(in reply to sirsholly)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/10/2010 10:32:04 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3


I work with people that have alcohol and drug addictions every day. The recharacterization to it being a disease, I have found helps them substantially to understand it's LIFELONG effects. It doesn't hold them unaccountable, quite the contrary, it demonstrates to them that even if they have been clean and sober for awhile, then can NEVER go back because it is a disease that is lifelong.

Term I wish you luck. I know many intelligent people that have hesitated to go into organized therapy because they felt it wouldn't work for them. I think it is true that you will need a therapist that really can relate to you intellectually and a group that can as well. They are out there. I know many attorneys, doctors, scientists, teachers, professors, etc that are recovering alcoholics and in recovery groups for people of like minds. You are unlikely to be able to walk this road alone, no matter how hard you try or how motivated you are. We all need someone there to sometimes tell us we are just kidding ourselves. The beauty of it is, as everyone here has demonstrted, you are not alone...take that step and find some help, I think you'll be suprised of the quality of people there are out there to help you.

Good luck!



To begin, I have problems with someone who tells me they are an expert in their field but has serious spelling issues.

Sort of limits credibility.



What serious spelling issues? I count one typo and one word that could be a typo or a spelling error. You really seem to be reaching here, and it's hard to understand where this is coming from.


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In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


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Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/10/2010 10:40:14 AM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

But by saying that you have somewhat proven my point of the cultist atmosphere of AA.


Not at all. You had one negative experience, and that's your basis for condemning anything and anyone connected with AA in any way.

You were complaining about alcohol counselors jumping to knee jerk conclusions based on preconceptions. I don't know anything about these counselors (never ran across them myself), but here you are doing exactly the same thing--and with liberal amounts of attitude at that, despite the calm tone of everyone else.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/10/2010 10:40:15 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

]I am fairly certain most of the tears are genuine, as is the support. You say you do not have an alcohol problem and thats a good thing, but there are many others who do and AA works for them. For heavens sake..if they are driven to tears, let them cry without criticism.

As far as "it really wasn't their fault"...one of the steps in working a successful program is accepting responsibility. Some accept responsibility and some do not.



I guess that's my main question.

How do you accept responsibility while simultaneously saying you are not in control?



when you admit a loss of control it is a given that you can no longer drink. You choose sobriety. You accept the responsibility of avoiding that which you cannot control.

You accept responsibility for your actions and the damage you did in the past because of your addiction.

Should you lose your sobriety you accept that action as a choice you made no matter the circumstances and accept responsibility.


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(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/10/2010 10:52:37 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I guess that's my main question.

How do you accept responsibility while simultaneously saying you are not in control?

OK. While I suspect you're just on shooting spree, I'll entertain this seriously and give you the benefit of any doubt.

Look at the entire thing: "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable."

Nobody goes because they think it's a cool idea--they go because it's the last stop. Things aren't working, and finally, it's time to face that reality. It's time to get some help. It's time to TAKE responsibility (the ability to respond) and make better, more responsible choices. When that choice is to end an addiction, usually along with complicating circumstances, help is in order.

Right now I'm in the car shop. I needed help with my car. So, responsibly, I turned to people who can help. Or to be responsible, would I have had to try to repair it myself?

Add to this that a long period of denial is common before turning to help. It's a difficult addiction.

But even then, "The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking." That's it. Even the rest, "here are the steps we took which are suggested as a program of recovery." Suggested. That's fanaticism for ya!

Sure, there're some adamant people, just as everywhere, and just as you in your fervor to reject it all a priori.

Contempt before investigation. It's from the end of the Big Book. It's a useful reminder.


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/10/2010 11:01:45 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		If you jump out of a 50 story building and land on a baby in a buggy, you are responsible, though hardly in control of your descent path.

The choice you made then leads to the inevitable consequence now.  There is cause and effect, and it is never absent consequence.

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Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/10/2010 11:36:08 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3


I work with people that have alcohol and drug addictions every day. The recharacterization to it being a disease, I have found helps them substantially to understand it's LIFELONG effects. It doesn't hold them unaccountable, quite the contrary, it demonstrates to them that even if they have been clean and sober for awhile, then can NEVER go back because it is a disease that is lifelong.

Term I wish you luck. I know many intelligent people that have hesitated to go into organized therapy because they felt it wouldn't work for them. I think it is true that you will need a therapist that really can relate to you intellectually and a group that can as well. They are out there. I know many attorneys, doctors, scientists, teachers, professors, etc that are recovering alcoholics and in recovery groups for people of like minds. You are unlikely to be able to walk this road alone, no matter how hard you try or how motivated you are. We all need someone there to sometimes tell us we are just kidding ourselves. The beauty of it is, as everyone here has demonstrted, you are not alone...take that step and find some help, I think you'll be suprised of the quality of people there are out there to help you.

Good luck!



To begin, I have problems with someone who tells me they are an expert in their field but has serious spelling issues.

Sort of limits credibility.



What serious spelling issues? I count one typo and one word that could be a typo or a spelling error. You really seem to be reaching here, and it's hard to understand where this is coming from.



Do some more counting.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/11/2010 8:27:08 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		I'm of two minds here....I agree with Holly....AA helps improve the quality of life of many.....but I also agree with RML in that it is a cult.One with the overriding message(and in some cases the self fulfilling prophecy)of the one drink will lead you back to your nightmare.
A man standing up and declaring himself to be an alcoholic....who hasn't had a drink in 40 years....I'm sorry,get a life get out of the church basement and move on....of course that would violate all of the tenets of the cult...which teaches all of it's supplicants that without the group they are lost

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/11/2010 8:43:26 AM   
slvemike4u


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Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		One more thing.....those cut-ups Penn and Teller did one of their myth buster HBO shows on AA.....they presented(look up the show )"evidence" statistical and anecdotal that suggested despite the support of the medical and in many case the judicial sectors....AA's success rate is no better than any other method.....and indeed worse than some.
In Europe they have a program that I think is referred to as "Rationed Drinking" which  purports to help problem drinkers ...not by cutting out all booze.....but by altering their drinking patterns.....it claims a higher success rate.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/11/2010 9:21:12 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Probably completely missed the boat on this one, but how about grapefruit juice? Sour rather than sweet, very refreshing indeed (particularly a nice big glass with some ice in it on a hot day), and I'd hope that not even you Americans go adding that HFCS muck to concentrated fruit juice.

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Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/11/2010 9:40:36 AM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		rml?... what's you real issue with all this.

I know a little something about Laurell, she isn't full of shit.

So what's your deal?

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(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/11/2010 2:03:07 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		The spelling errors/typos notwithstanding, I did not claim to be a substance abuse counselor. Read again. I am not one. I know MANY and rely on them in my professional field, and also work with people that have this as well as many other issues and have for many years.

You are always free to take the advice or leave it....but that whole I can't listen because you made typo's thing is both unintelligent and evasive of the actual issue. Take it as you will....or don't...it does not change the fact that your isolated incident with AA and others does not mean that the entire field is bogus. It isn't and there are many qualified professionals out there that can and will help. I do agree that finding them can be much like dating, a bad therapist is not helpful, a bad program is not helpful. I do believe I acknowleged that as well in my post. You of course are welcome to discount my opinion/post/advice as I am yours, but the fact does remain that there are many success stories out there of people that have overcome addiction in that same system that you have completely discounted due to one isolated incident, we call that denial and I'm hopeful others that aren't as ready to be so passive agressive will get the message: you are not alone.

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I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/11/2010 3:13:20 PM   
ricken


Posts: 261
Joined: 1/11/2010
Status: offline 		Term,

I had to skip a couple of pages, but wanted to post a reply for you. At one time I was drinking WAY too much beer also. I didn't feel I was an alcoholic, but drank more from habit, and boredom.
I did two things, first I LEARNED to drink water, yeah that stuff sucks, I had to force myself to drink it, but I did, always a full cold bottle in the fridge, even if bottle water costs money, it's less  than beer, and for me it had to be cold, really cold. ALWAYS have a bottle of water in your hand and drink it.
When I decided to start drinking again I stoped buying cheap beer, I always liked better beer and was so thankfull that the micro brews have become more available. I like darker, heavier stouts and porters. After one or two I am satisfied I got the flavour and I'm full.
I'm also going to say something I haven't seen anyone else say....IF you really want to stop drinking for a period of time, you can't have it around you, no beer or liquor in the house, if the people around you won't help then you need to re-think who you have around you.

After you get in the habbit of drinking water, you will notice a change. This is what worked for me, it really is just re-learning habits.
.

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/11/2010 3:27:11 PM   
JstAnotherSub


Posts: 6174
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

To begin, I have problems with someone who tells me they are an expert in their field but has serious spelling issues.

Sort of limits credibility.



What serious spelling issues? I count one typo and one word that could be a typo or a spelling error. You really seem to be reaching here, and it's hard to understand where this is coming from.



Do some more counting.



i saw one typo.  i was a 7th grade spelin champeen.....them was some gud speled big werds she used, and ewesd them rite

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/11/2010 4:08:58 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

In Europe they have a program that I think is referred to as "Rationed Drinking" which  purports to help problem drinkers ...not by cutting out all booze.....but by altering their drinking patterns.....it claims a higher success rate.


Not just in Europe, there was a similar program here.

As I recall AA and MADD basically shouted it down as fraudulent.

Because the only way to control drinking is not to drink.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/11/2010 4:12:41 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ricken

Term,

I had to skip a couple of pages, but wanted to post a reply for you. At one time I was drinking WAY too much beer also. I didn't feel I was an alcoholic, but drank more from habit, and boredom.
I did two things, first I LEARNED to drink water, yeah that stuff sucks, I had to force myself to drink it, but I did, always a full cold bottle in the fridge, even if bottle water costs money, it's less  than beer, and for me it had to be cold, really cold. ALWAYS have a bottle of water in your hand and drink it.
When I decided to start drinking again I stoped buying cheap beer, I always liked better beer and was so thankfull that the micro brews have become more available. I like darker, heavier stouts and porters. After one or two I am satisfied I got the flavour and I'm full.
I'm also going to say something I haven't seen anyone else say....IF you really want to stop drinking for a period of time, you can't have it around you, no beer or liquor in the house, if the people around you won't help then you need to re-think who you have around you.

After you get in the habbit of drinking water, you will notice a change. This is what worked for me, it really is just re-learning habits.
.


Exactly.

For most it is just a habit and habits can be altered.







(in reply to ricken)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/11/2010 6:10:16 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
To begin, I have problems with someone who tells me they are an expert in their field but has serious spelling issues.

Sort of limits credibility.



What serious spelling issues? I count one typo and one word that could be a typo or a spelling error. You really seem to be reaching here, and it's hard to understand where this is coming from.



Do some more counting.



What would be the point? If I cut and paste it into Word again, and run spell check again, I'll get a different result than the first time? The woman makes good points and seems to know what she's talking about. Why go to such lengths to discredit her, especially without merit?

Again, I don't  understand what buttons this is pushing for you. I'm no fan of 12-step programs myself, and generally steer well clear of people who want to talk about them, but the bottom line is that for a lot of people it works. There are untold numbers of alcoholics living rich, productive lives, with good jobs and family members  who love them, but who would be dead if it weren't for AA. To each their own.


_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/11/2010 6:41:54 PM   
LittleBroken


Posts: 207
Status: offline 		I was thinking of Root/Ginger Beer.
It's refreshing, has the same sort of brewed flavor and it develops the same sort of creamy head when poured out into a glass.

That way you don't miss out on the whole ritual of sitting down with a glass in your hand at the end of the day, which in and of itself is very soothing.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Beer substitute ? - 5/11/2010 7:23:55 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

In Europe they have a program that I think is referred to as "Rationed Drinking" which  purports to help problem drinkers ...not by cutting out all booze.....but by altering their drinking patterns.....it claims a higher success rate.


Not just in Europe, there was a similar program here.

As I recall AA and MADD basically shouted it down as fraudulent.

Because the only way to control drinking is not to drink.

And yet they claim a higher success rate....of course for the one success means total abstinance and nights spent in church basements.....the other isn't so big on the abstinancething....or the church basements......lol.
I know who I would prefer to help me...were such help needed.I like soft landings.....lol.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 120
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